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What You'll Learn In Today's Episode
  • As a financial advisor, do not approach CPAs at public events with a sales pitch. They’re not likely to sign with someone they do not know personally.
  • Build relationships with the CPAs in your niche by booking an appointment with them and paying for an hour of their time. Explain to them that your clients are looking for CPA referrals from you and you would like to use that time to see if you would be a good fit for them. Make sure to specify that this is not a guarantee of client recommendations from you.
  • Have a list of questions prepared that you can ask them to see if they are indeed a good fit. Do a thorough research on the CPA before the meeting.
  • Let the CPA be in control of the meeting by letting them know that you’d answer any questions they might have before you start asking yours.
  • After you’re done asking questions, use the last few minutes to explain the process of how you or your firm does business.
Resources In Today’s Episode:

Welcome to the Retirement Tax Services Podcast! In this episode, Steven discusses the best (and worst) ways for financial advisors to seek professional CPA referrals.

Both Financial Advisors and CPA’s alike want to grow their practice. Naturally, referrals from a trusted professional source are helpful in doing that. However, finding a CPA who will actually give advisors referrals can be frustrating.

CPA Referrals Are Sometimes Rare

Does asking a CPA for a referral feel like you’re asking for an awkward play date? The good news is that you are not alone. Steven (who is a CPA, himself) spent years going to Chamber of Commerce and other local events trying to get referrals.

Over and over, he found that simply asking for a referral, one never worked. Even within the accounting industry, it wasn’t always easy. So how is it actually done successfully? CPA referrals have a reputation as a one-way street among advisors. That’s because many of them send referrals to CPAs and attorneys—and never see anything sent back.

Steven’s guest Matthew Jarvis is a well-established financial advisor. About 1/3 of Matthew’s clients are referrals from CPA’s. “Every marketing expert I’ve ever run into says ‘Call your CPA and ask him for referrals,’ Matthew reflects, “And my experience—and the experience of almost every advisor I’ve met: That approach gets a solid ‘No.’”

Why it’s Not Easy

From the other side, Steven says in the past he has typically avoided financial advisors at public events. Most of them swarm him with a hard-sell pitch. He’s not eager to sign on with someone he doesn’t know.

No one ever leads with “Here’s what I’m going to do for your client,” he notes. They are usually overbearing and one-sided. Similarly, he gets lunch invitations, but it’s hard to know what to expect. Most are too dubious to bother with.

Even if he knows the advisor requesting a referral, he still has to look out for his own clients. For most CPAs, having a referred client come back and say, “All that guy wanted to do is sell annuities to me,” is a nightmare scenario. That’s too much risk to consider. To make matters worse, the average CPA probably doesn’t really know what a financial planner actually does.

Matthew’s Big Secret

Chasing accountants at conventions won’t help you bridge the gap. As a result, Matthew came up with a better approach: Instead of awkwardly cold-calling, he asks to buy an hour of a prospective CPA’s time.

“I call the CPAs in my niche,” he explains, “I say, ‘Hey listen: I have clients all the time that are asking me for referrals to CPAs. I can’t promise that I’ll send you any referrals because you may not be a good fit, therefore I want to pay for an hour of your time.”

This sets him apart in two ways: Nobody else is typically offering to do it. Additionally, CPAs live and die by hourly billing. So, offering compensation adds instant appeal.

They nearly always accept. Matthew got the idea from Ray Adams, an advisor who mentored him. If a CPA asks why you’re in their office, Adams used to jokingly recommend answering, “I paid for this time. If I want to stand on your desk and yodel, that’s up to me.”

Steven has lots more in this edition of the Retirement Tax Services Podcast. If you enjoy it, please feel free to subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you’re listening from.

Do you have suggestions? Would you like to share a retirement tax planning experience on the podcast? Drop us a line at advisors@rts.tax.

Thank you for listening.

Transcript

Steven Jarvis:

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Retirement Tax Radio: Professional’s Edition. I am your host Steven Jarvis, CPA and in this show I teach financial advisors how to deliver massive value to their clients with tax filing. Today we’re gonna focus on working with centers of influence and specifically working with CPAs to get referrals. So, right out of the gate I just wanna say that even though I’m not a financial advisor, I’ve spent my entire career hearing from people I need to work with centers of influence. And from talking to advisors, I know advisors get the same advice. That hey you need to go out, meet the bankers, the lawyers, the financial advisors, the CPAs, depending on what profession you’re currently in. Go out there and get all their referrals. Now the piece that no one ever talks about though is how does that actually happen. I spent years of my career going to chamber of commerce meetings and other local events, telling myself I was gonna get all these referrals but never knowing what to do besides saying “Hey can I have a referral?”, which never worked. So today I have a guest advisor here with me, Matthew Jarvis from the Seattle area. And at this point of his career, he gets about one third of his new clients each year from CPAs. So I’m really excited to have Matt here today to talk about his process for making that happen. So Matt, welcome.

Matthew Jarvis:

Hey Steven, thanks for having me. I have to confess, it’s funny to hear a CPA say that referrals didn’t work well for them because when I talk to financial advisors, we, myself included, universally across the board say “Man I sent all these referrals to my CPAs, to my attorneys and they never sent any back”. So in our minds, our convoluted, deluded minds, referrals are a one-way street. Despite what every marketing tells us right, every marketing expert I’ve ever run into says “Call your CPA and ask him for referrals” and my experience and the experience of almost every advisor I’ve met, that approach gets a solid NO. And I’m curious to see if you could explain to us why, why CPAs won’t give us the referrals we want?

Why Is It So Hard For Financial Advisors To Get Referrals From CPAs? [2:18]

SJ:

Well, Matt I’m sorry that’s been your experience but to be honest I’m not too surprised. So I can only share my experience but I can tell you why I don’t send referrals to FAs. And honestly the single biggest reason is that even though we talk about us CPAs going and giving referrals, as soon as we get to those events, we are on the lookout primarily for the financial advisors and insurance guys to stay away from them. Because as soon as we start talking, they immediately go into sales mode of “Hey, I see that we serve the same clients, maybe you could send them my way?”And it’s like I just met you, I don’t remember your name, I’m not entirely sure what Financial Advising even is? It seems like this very nebulous- what do you do? And so I don’t have a lot of reason to send people to you. And even if I’ve met you before and I think you’re a nice person, I still don’t know what’s gonna happen to my client when they pick up the phone and call you. So no one’s ever led with “Here’s what I’m gonna do for your client”, it’s always “Hey give me a referral” So I don’t see why I have any motivation to send them to you.

MJ:

It’s funny you mentioned that, a CPA who sends me lot of referrals, she explained to me the other day that an advisor that I knew, I won’t mention his name because I’m sure he listens to this podcast; an advisor that I knew had approached her and told her that he needs more clients for his practice. Which is not her problem, but he needs more clients for his practice, he’s decided to specialize in working with women. And she’s a woman therefore she must have women clients and if she would just refer to him- actually if she would just give him a list of all of her woman clients that would be great. She of course was appalled and threw him out of the room. And said to me, “Jarvis I’m so glad that you’ve never taken that approach with me because I’d never send you another referral again.” So I think Steven, to your point, CPAs don’t know what’s gonna happen when they send a referral to an advisor. And most advisors come with this really sleazy sales approach that “you owe me referrals, send them my way”.

SJ:

Yeah. Now I’m not surprised that those are the experiences that are out there. The other thing I would add is that for CPAs, everyone assumes we do taxes, right? Which isn’t universally true but it’s a very positive assumption at the very least. But for FAs, I’m not even sure what the default assumption is because there’s just a lot of uncertainty. Do you do investments? Do you do debt consolidations? Are you gonna help me how much I’m gonna save each month from my retirement account? I’m not even sure what you do. And so even if I don’t do taxes but you assume I do taxes, it’s at least positive for me. So I feel like there’s too much risk to me if I send someone to you. Coz what if they come back and say “Steven this Matt guy, all he wanted to do was sell annuities to me. That’s the only thing he wanted to talk about.” I know, great, now my client’s upset with me because I made that referral. So Matt, you mentioned in there that your CPA friend was so glad that you don’t take that approach. So let’s talk about what approach you do take.

MJ:

Yeah, this is an approach that took me a lot of years to learn and I got inspired to do it by a fellow financial planner who was having a lot of success. A side rant, always take advice from people who are doing, not from people who are saying. But my approach has been and very successfully so, that I reach out to centers of influence, we’ll stay focused on CPAs for the day, and I offer to pay for an hour of their time. Which sets me apart from everyone else in two ways: one, nobody else is offering to pay for an hour of their time. And two, CPAs live and die by hourly billing and for someone to voluntarily pay for their time catapults me to this new level that they have not seen. Now the reason I’m willing to pay for an hour of their time, and I have to give them a reason coz otherwise they’d be confused, the reason is that my clients are always asking me for referrals to CPAs. And for the time being we’ll focus on CPAs. So I’ll call my local CPAs, the CPAs in my niche, and I say “Hey listen, I have clients all the time that are asking me for referrals to CPAs. I can’t promise that I’ll send you any referrals because you may not be a good fit. Therefore I wanna pay for an hour of your time to get a better feel for how you work with clients so that I know which clients are the best to refer to you. Is that okay with you?” And they nearly universally say Yes, that would be spectacular, no one’s ever done that before.

Matthew Jarvis’ Approach To Winning CPA Referrals [5:07]

SJ:

Wow that’s really interesting. I’ve definitely had plenty of people who fall under centers of influence to offer to take me to lunch, but it’s always kind of this vague invitation that I know I’m getting lunch out of it and I’m trying to decide is lunch really worth whatever it is they are trying to bring here. Coz even if you call and offer to pay for an hour of my time, I’m going to be way more excited than if you offered me lunch, but there’s still gonna be part of me that’s like okay, what’s the catch? What’s his hard sell halfway through this?

MJ:

Yeah I’m glad you mentioned it. And sometimes we’ll forget that. They forget as Americans or as an international audience, we are always very nervous that we are gonna be sold. Thus the reason you don’t want to take a free lunch, or if somebody offers to take your email address you don’t want to give it to them. So I make it very clear to them, I would say in our conversations or in our emails I say “Hey Steven here are the list of questions that I’m gonna ask you during our meeting” so that they know what I’m coming in with. I always like to joke with them, “Hey this isn’t going to be a quiz, this is not a test, these are just things I need to know before I can refer clients to you.” And then I put at the end of the email, I say “Hey like you, I’m a professional. I would never insult your time by asking you for referrals or trying to sell you anything.” I just put that right out there because as you pointed out, that’s the elephant in the room. They’re expecting to be sold something because that’s what every financial advisor they’ve ever met has done and I need to right out of the gate manage that expectation and say hey that’s not why I’m here

SJ:

That’s really interesting. But let’s come back to the questions you asked. One other question from my perspective as we get into this… so you say in your email, “Hey I’m not gonna ask for any referrals”, but Matt you’ve been doing this for a long time now. I’m sure there’s things you can learn from a CPA, but especially if you do this over and over again, I’ve gotta imagine that you’re going into that not expecting to learn a whole lot right? How do you keep a mindset of staying open-minded or trying to learn from them and not just thinking “Hey when am I gonna get a referral?”

MJ:

That’s a great question Steven, so I was trying to set up any prospective gain so I can’t lose. So that’s another reason, if I go and ask a CPA for referrals (again, terrible idea), odds are they are gonna say No and therefore I’ve lost the game. If I go in there saying “Hew I wanna see if you’re potentially a good fit for some of my best clients”, I can only win that game. Either I’m gonna come out of that thinking, that’s a CPA I don’t wanna talk to again, I’m never gonna send a client to, which has happened. Or I’m gonna think this is a really valuable CPA. They have great bedside manner, they have good systems in place, I think they’ll take really good care of my clients if I refer them to this CPA. So I’m really going there on behalf of my clients, that’s my motivation. On behalf of my client, I’m taking time to interview this person.

SJ:

Okay so even though we started this episode with “Hey how do we get referrals from centers of influence”, you genuinely approach this as- well the immediate win for you is the screening process. It is either, I’ve taken someone off the list that I’m gonna refer to or I’ve added another good resource to my list that can work with my clients.

MJ:

That’s right because as a FA to my clients I’m charging a premium fee. They say “Hey Matthew, I need a CPA to help me with this” and if I say, “Well, you have to Google it.” Or “I’ve heard so and so is a good idea”, right well that’s what most advisors would say. That’s not delivering massive value. If I say, “Steven, guess what? I’ve interviewed all of the CPAs or most of the CPAs in my area and these two I think are a really good fit for your situation. In fact I’d be glad to call Dave and make an introduction if that’s what you’d like because I know Dave would take good care of you. Now I’m again, head and shoulders above any other advisor out there.

What To Do Once You Are In The Room With a CPA. [9:32]

SJ:

That’s really interesting. Let’s talk about the first time you went and talked to Dave the CPA. So he said “Yes come pay me for an hour of my time”, you sent him these questions. Now he’s already seen the questions when you get there. Talk to me about what some of those questions are and how that meeting flows.

MJ:

Yeah so when I get there the very first thing I do is thank Dave for his time and set a cheque down on his desk for whatever his hourly fee was. And if by some chance I didn’t know what it was, then I’d have a cheque with the dollar amount not filled in yet. And I’d say “Hey Dave, as promised I wanna pay for this time, here’s my cheque.” Sometimes they’ll take it, sometimes they won’t, that’s really not the point. The point is that I’m starting right away, I said I was going to do this and I did it. I also show up exactly on time, I would never show up late. So I want to start setting these expectations that I’m a person of my word, that I do what I say and I say what I do. Oh I always say “Dave here’s this cheques blah blah blah, I’ve got this list of questions but before I jump into those, just anything you’d like to ask me or anything we need to talk about before we jump into these questions?” They’re used to being in control and I want to concede to them control of this meeting.

SJ:

Have you ever gotten any interesting questions that surprised you right out of the gate?

MJ:

I’ve gotten several, especially from the more jaded or little more experienced… like what the hell is this? Why would you pay me for my time? What’s going on here? And I just tell them right out of the gate, just like I’ve already explained: I’m looking for someone to whom I can send clients. And that’s it you know. That’s usually the end of the resistance. Partly they’re just so curious about just why, they’re fascinated at this idea.

SJ:

Yeah no one’s ever offered to do that for me. I’d probably have some hesitancy coming in, but now you’ve got an hour of their time to prove that skepticism wrong.

MJ:

The advisor that taught me to do this, this guy Ray Adams, great guy… he told me, when the CPA asks me why he’s there, he says “You know I’ve paid for this time, if I want to stand on this desk and yodel that’s up to me”. Which I thought was very funny but I don’t recommend that approach. That’s not a good use for your time. But then I just have the questions out on a piece of paper and I’m taking notes and I just start asking them the questions and we walk all the way through. I then make sure I’m done with my questions in about 30 minutes. I’m kinda keeping an eye on the time because I want some time for some general chit chat, I wanna know about their family, I wanna know about why they’re in business. And I’ve already done my research ahead of time, I want to know everything I can possibly google about them. But then I always want a few minutes at the end, and say “Hey listen I just want you to know what happens when people call us and want to know about our firm, how we help them make an educated and informed decision about our firm.” I don’t lead with “Hey when you send us referrals, that’s insulting” I just lead with “Hey I want you to understand how our process works, coz this is different than a lot of firms.” Steven this goes back to your question or your point about, hey if I send an advisor a referral, I don’t even know what’s gonna happen.

SJ:

So then you describe this process for what’s gonna happen, and you’re telling me you still at no point ask for a referral. You are not describing this process and then say “Okay Dave, that’s how the process works, we’d love to try it out with one of your clients”

MJ:

Nope not at all. Because that’s gonna be totally insulting to them. One, if the roles were reversed, I would say “Sorry Steven, I don’t have anybody for y’all, I’ll think about it” But now they’re on the defence, and I don’t want them to be on the defence. I mean they’re gonna be on the defense already, I don’t want to give them any reason to be more defensive. What I’ll end with is “Hey Steven, love to check in with you every couple of months when I have a tax question or when I have a client situation. I’d like to review it, is it okay if I just call you and pay you for an hour of your time?” Or I’ll mention to Steven, “Or I’d be glad to buy you lunch coz now we already have this rapport in this relationship.” And then I’d find a reason every 3-4 months to get a hold of him. For example, we’re in the process of contacting all of our centers of influence right now, asking them for an hour of their time that we’ll pay for to review a value ad that we’re sending out to clients. We’re gonna say hey listen, you deal with a lot of the same clients that we do. We want your professional opinion on this piece and how we can make it more valuable. And it gives us an excuse to get in front of them.

SJ:

So Matt, talk a little more about that Value ad, because I know this is a hard thing for me when I’m trying to work with Centers of Influence. I feel like especially for a CPA I’m pretty personable, I can make a good first impression. But sometimes it can feel like a stretch of okay I’m reaching back out to you to try to keep me top of mind, what do I put in front of them? So talk about that value ad you mentioned.

MJ:

Sure so stuff I’ll put in front of them anytime we’re doing a client event like a client education event or client appreciation event, I’ll call the center of influencers and say hey, we got some extra tickets, would love you to attend, would love to introduce you to some of our clients. Letting them know why it’s in their benefit. The value ad that we’re working on right now is helping clients understand how their beneficiaries work and that’s a whole podcast on it’s own. But CPAs and attorneys deal with beneficiaries all the time when people die or different issues with tax planning. And so we show them this beneficiary value ad and say “Hey how can we make it better? What can we do as financial advisors to make your job easier? Which usually as an advisor, you’re in the role of making their job more difficult. You’ve done a Roth conversion or you’ve harvested capital gains. And the CPA has to be the bearer of bad news that the client owes 20,000 dollars.

How To Set Yourself Apart from Other Advisors. [14:22]

SJ:

Yeah that’s definitely a whole other podcast episode and maybe we’ll have you back at some point to talk about that. So Matt one of the things that I love that you’re describing is that you’re really giving that what’s gonna happen to somebody I refer to you and not just trying to convince me to like you. Coz when I think about other services or products that I buy, and those places that constantly ask me for referrals, I don’t ever send them referrals whether I like them or not. Because this isn’t Hey, Matt’s a good guy so maybe I’ll help him out by sending him business. That’s not how this works. And so I like that your approach isn’t “Here’s why I’m such a great person”,it’s “here’s what’s gonna happen to the client you refer to me”. And then at no point are you actually asking for a client, coz then I don’t have to be on the defensive of here’s why I shouldn’t send in any of my current clients. I’m thinking about when these opportunities come up, “Oh, Matt would be a good person to take care of this.”

MJ:

Oh for sure. Well this can go into a whole marketing discussion. A mistake that everyone makes in general is they say all the same things that everyone else is saying. Right so they sit down with the CPA, and say “hey I provide comprehensive financial planning.” Perfect, who comes in saying that they don’t? “I’m honest and hardworking”, great who comes in and says that they’re a lazybum who lies to their clients? That’s like me telling you “Hey guess what we got electricity at our office”. That’s not a selling point, that’s not a benefit that resonates. When I walk through and I’ve done this thorough interview, “Wow Matt’s the only guy that was really interested in if I was doing a good job or just sending me referrals in the hope that I would reciprocate.”

SJ:

Yeah the other one that I hear from FAs, I’m a fiduciary, I act in the best interest of my clients. And I’m thinking, Yeah me too., I’m a professional, why wouldn’t I act in the best interest of my clients? The fact that that’s what you lead with, its’ like do you have anything else to offer or you’re just gonna try your best?

MJ:

: yeah it’s a critical thing right? And a CPA, or any center of influence, they’re being bombarded by other advisors, by the copy machine sales person, their life is busy with solicitation. I have to stand out from that entire crowd and offer to pay for their time. Now I do have to warn advisors, listen to this, I’ve run into this before as I teach advisors this strategy on the Perfect RIA podcast. They’ll call me and say I’ve paid for four CPAs time and they didn’t send me any referrals. Yeah exactly they didn’t. This is al ong game, this is a relationship business. Odds are that the CPAs worked with their clients for years, maybe decades. They’re not just gonna send them to you because you sat in their office one time. This is something you’re gonna work on again and again and again.

Matthew Describes How This Approach Builds His Practice [16:45]

SJ:

Okay Matt, earlier you said that you should only take advice from people who are doing and not just theorizing. So pull back the curtain for us a bit, tell me about what this actually looks like when Dave sends you a referral. Because right now it just seems like here’s this great approach and then magic happens, and then you have referrals. So, give me an example?

MJ:

Took me about a year of consistently working on this strategy for it to start delivering results. And now about 1/3rd of my new clients, about 5-10 million dollars a year of new assets comes from centers of influence, primarily CPAs and some state attorneys. And at this point, they usually just tell clients “Hey listen, I see you’re getting close to retirement. This guy Matt specializes in retirement, you need to give him a call.” And that’s usually the extent of the introduction until I get the call. I don’t know what happens until the prospect calls me and says “Hey I work with Dave, CPA. They said I should talk to you. When can I meet with you?” We all know this, it’s so great to get a referral because there’s already trust built in there. But never have I had a CPA call me and say “You should call Larry, my client” They give Larry my name, and Larry either calls me or doesn’t.

SJ:

Okay so you don’t get a year into working with Dave the CPA and then say “Hey dave, here’s the process for how you’re gonna send me referrals” you’re letting this happen organically.

MJ:

That’s correct. Now when I meet this CPA throughout the year, I’m definitely making it as easy as possible. So for example, I might at one meeting share “here’s a one page financial plan that we did for a prospect recently. Love to pay for an hour of your time to walk through this to see if you think I missed anything or where I can improve”. Now I’m demonstrating to them my one page financial plan, demonstrate my value ads, my retirement income guardrails, whatever the tool is, I’m going to them as a fellow professional saying hey I would like your advice on this. How do I make this more valuable for our mutual clients.

Matthew’s Actionable Advice For Financial Advisors Looking To Win Referrals From Centers of Influence. [18:28]

SJ:

That’s great advice Matt. One of the things that we wanna do is make sure that this information is all really actionable so can we take a couple of minutes to talk about what advisors should do as a result of listening to this podcast.

MJ:

Yeah would love to. I would say first and foremost, swear to yourself that you’ll never again ask a center of influence, or really anybody, but we’re talking about centers of influence- that you will never again ask for a referral. It’s insulting and it puts you in the same bucket as everyone else from the used car salesperson to the timeshare salesperson. Professionals don’t ask each other for referrals. Professionals deliver massive value and when it’s a fit, referrals happen.

SJ:

I like that, that’s great. One of the action items I recommend out of what you’re talking about is for every advisor to start a list of the CPAs that they want to be working with. And you mentioned that you should find people that are in your same niche. So can you maybe talk for a second about how you identify what CPAs to work with?

MJ:

Yeah this is really critical. A lot of times advisors will look for Centers of Influence who “Look” like them. So this is not like a racial profiling, if I’m young I want CPAs that are young. What you want is CPAs that look or meet the same avatar as your target market. So my target market is retirees in my geographical area. Therefore I want the most mature, aka closest to retirement CPAs that I can. For a couple of reasons, one, retirement is on their mind. But also, odds are their clients look like them. Their clients are of their age demographic, so their clients are approaching retirement. If my niche was young dentists coming out of college, then I’d like to find a younger CPA who’s likely working with a younger group. So you wanna ideally work with whoever looks like your niche, but if that’s not an option, just talk to everybody. There’s no harm in getting the reps in.

SJ:

The other thing that you do is look at who your clients are already using. And the best way to do that is to get your client’s tax returns. And we’ll do a whole other episode on why you should be getting all of your clients’ and prospects’ tax returns, and it’s gonna list who their tax tax preparer is. And then you instantly know this is someone who works with clients similar to mine/

MJ:

Yup and that’s a whole other discussion. How do you support mutual clients between you and Centers of Influence, we’ll have to have a whole podcast episode on that.

SJ:

Definitely. So Matt, if I can, the other action item I would love to give to the podcast listeners, is if they could send me an email? Could I get them your list of CPA questions so they have a starting point?

MJ:

Yeah I’d be glad to do that. I don’t usually give that except to my coaching members but yes since you had me on your podcast, I will get you the list of questions we ask our CPA center of influences, and you’re welcome to give that out to all of your listeners.

SJ:

Perfect so if you’re listening to this podcast and would love to see that list of questions, go ahead and send us an email at advisors@rts.tax.

MJ:

You have a .tax domain, that’s pretty cool!

SJ:

Yes don’t add .com at the end of it, it’s rts.tax which I’m pretty excited about

MJ:

Perfect well see you and thanks so much for having me on the show, I hope this helps out a lot of your listeners.

SJ:

Thanks for coming Matt, and thanks everyone for listening. Really appreciate it. As I said, advisors@rts.tax if you’re interested in getting that list of CPA questions. And until next time, let’s all tip our servers, not the IRS!

The information on this site is for education only and should not be considered tax advice. Retirement Tax Services is not affiliated with Shilanski & Associates, Jarvis Financial Services or any other financial services firms.

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