Read The Transcript Below:

Steven (00:49):

Hello everyone, and welcome to the next episode of the Retirement Tax Services Podcast, Financial Professionals edition. I’m your host, Steven Jarvis CPA, and with me on the show today, I have a fellow CPA, Tyler Harris, who works at Gersey- Schneider as a CPA, working with eight and nine figure entrepreneurs. And the reason I’m excited to have Tyler on the show is that he spends a lot of time producing content, especially on LinkedIn, helping people learn more about taxes. So Tyler, welcome.

 

Tyler (01:17):

Hi, Steven. Yeah, I’m happy to be here. Super excited.

 

Steven (01:19):

Tyler, the other reason, honestly, I’m happy to have you on this show is that you’re, at least for me, you’re one example of people I originally met on LinkedIn that I’ve now had the chance to meet in person and just kind of make a connection with, it’s always fun to take things offline, but now we’re back recording this podcast together.

 

Tyler (01:33):

Yeah, it was awesome meeting you in person. And yeah, I’ve been really stoked for the relationship we have, so for sure. And I’ve also enjoyed watching your content on LinkedIn as well, so a little bit more, I like the realness you provide. I feel like sometimes there’s a little bit of those TikTok stuff that people get to caught up in and you bring everything kind of back down to real life and practical stuff and use, you know, things that you can, actionable advice on there. So I really enjoy your stuff.

 

Steven (02:02):

Well, thank you, Tyler. That certainly is my goal. A along those lines, one of the things we wanted to talk about today with that kind of theme of making sure it is actionable, making sure it’s practical, is that you spend a lot of time specifically talking about taxes around real estate. So maybe talk a little bit about your background and your interest. Why is real estate the thing you talk about?

 

Tyler (02:22):

I love real estate because it’s one of those few areas where you can find substantial tax savings. Like, our goal is usually to help our clients within the first five years save a million dollars in tax just by implementing other strategies. And so it’s just one of the areas that if used properly, you can really find some substantial savings. We talked previously for a little bit about Section 1202 stock as well. That’s a huge one. And then pre-sale of a company is another thing I like to focus on. It’s just really a fun place to be in when you can save somebody, you know, six or seven figures in tax. It’s just a lot of fun. I think personally, so yeah.

 

Steven (03:00):

Everybody I work with for some reason wants to pay less than taxes. I happen to agree with them, but for some reason, everyone seems to think that their fair share of taxes is less, and then they have different opinion on everybody else’s fair share. But I’m with you. It’s work with clients to help them save as much as we can. And in that demographic that you’re serving those eight, nine figure entrepreneurs, that makes a lot of sense that the tax savings you’re seeing can be in those six or even seven figures over a few years. And that’s obviously gonna scale depending on the size of the projects, the size of the investments. But talk a little bit about what some of those key things that you’re seeing those tax savings come from. Because it’s not just the act of, Hey, I wouldn’t purchase real estate and now magically I don’t have to pay as much in taxes.

 

Tyler (03:42):

Sure. So I mean, there’s a few strategies specific to real estate that can really make it powerful and especially when you’re able to make that real estate activity and active activity, that’s when a lot of the savings is able to come to play. So that could be either using a spouse to be a real estate professional. A lot of times one of the two spouses is the main income earner, a lot of times not always. And so if they’re interested or willing to, we can have the spouse become a real estate professional and use accelerated depreciation through something called a cost segregation study and kind of just front load their tax savings. You kind of think of it as like a super huge 401K contribution or something like that. You’re just deferring a large amount of tax and depending on your strategy, you can make that a long time or a short time.

 

(04:32):

But, so that’s the main one. I love doing that. There’s also the short-term rental strategy that a lot of people have used, and it’s easier to like more accessible to everybody, but I feel like it’s, I think it’s a little harder to pull off, to be honest. So those are two of them. And then we also just recommending different types of properties as well where they’re able to take a very large portion of their depreciation in the first year. One good example of that is a car wash where you’re able to take between 70 and 90% of the depreciation in the first year. So anyway, those are some of the fun things. I just like that idea and one of the big questions is always what’s the deal with depreciation? Recapture? A lot of CPAs are scared of that or just really worried about like, recapturing income at an ordinary rate. And I just think they forget to think about the net present value of all those, of all that tax deferral. So anyway, that’s what I like. It’s fun.

 

Steven (05:26):

So Tyler, let’s take a step back and unpack a few of those things because I can tell that you deal with this all the time. I mean, you just rattle off all of these concepts as though everyone’s as comfortable with them as you are, which is great. That’s why people should work with you on things like real estate. But let’s unpack a few things for our audience as far as why these things are relevant. Because for most people, by default, rental income is gonna be considered passive unless there’s a specific reason we can consider it active. And the reason that’s important, this is obviously things, you know, but just for our audience, the reason that’s an important distinction is that there are limitations on how much of a taxable loss you can take when you are getting passive income from real estate from a rental property.

 

(06:08):

And then we start, we miss out on some of those tax benefits. In fact, I’ve definitely worked with clients before who didn’t work with a tax specific real estate professional and got into rental properties, assuming that they’d have this massive tax benefit in the first year because they did all these improvements and they had this huge loss, and then they’re just almost at the point of crisis when they realized, oh, wait a second, I can’t deduct that $80,000 this year. And so that passive versus active distinction is really important. So Tyler, can you talk a little bit about what really makes that, or how we flip that switch from passive to active? You talked about a spouse potentially being able to do that, but what are those requirements that we need to be thinking about?

 

Tyler (06:48):

Yeah, so there’s two different ways and to secondly, you said absolutely like real estate, you get great tax benefits from real estate. However, it’s not usually gonna offset your active income ever unless you use one of these two different strategies. So the first one that I mentioned is real estate professional status. And to qualify for that, you have to have 750 hours of business activity in a real estate trader business. Sorry, I kind of stumbled with that. But so what that would be is like a real estate agent, a real estate broker, commercial properties just to name a few ideas of what those would be. And it also has to be more than half of what you do. So right off the bat, to qualify for real estate professional status, it’s almost impossible to qualify if you have a W2.

 

(07:39):

So even if you’re in a real estate trader business, but you’re a W2 employee, it’s gonna be very difficult to qualify if not impossible. I would just basically say don’t do it. But in that case, you know, there’s obviously some exceptions. Like if you became self-employed that same year, you could potentially flip the switch as long as you get the 750 hours or more than what your W2 was. And that’s the first requirement to be able to do this. So first of all, you have to be a real estate professional, 750 hours more than half of what you do. The second hurdle to cross is that you have to materially participate in the real estate activity. And so there are seven different material participation requirements. Biggest two that I like to reference are the number one, which is the 500 hour rule.

 

(08:26):

So basically, as long as you have participated for 500 hours into that activity in a year, which is basically 10 hours a week, right? That’s quite a bit. That’s gonna be treated as materially participating. It’s non-passive. It will offset any depreciation you take in that category now for that activity can offset your other active income from your real estate trader business or your spouse’s W2. And the second one that you could use, but it’s a little harder to get away with, is a hundred hour rule. If you put in at least a hundred hours into the activity and more than anybody else, any other individual, doesn’t matter if they own the activity or not, then you could also qualify. Very important thing to mention here is a lot of real estate professionals don’t self-manage every single property they have. There is a grouping election that they can make and group all of their different rental properties together. And as long as in the aggregate they participate for 500 hours, they get to qualify that specific group of businesses as active. And so that’s really the golden goose right there. That’s what everybody’s aiming for is getting at least 500 hours total and then they can go out and invest in any other passive syndication or fund or anything that they want to at that point.

 

Steven (09:41):

So for our listeners, I mean this might sound like we’re getting into the weeds and we are a bit, but for me where this is helpful as I work with advisors is the more that we can make you aware of so that you can ask the right questions, you can identify the opportunities. You don’t need to go and commit all of this to memory and be able to speak to it at the same level as someone like Tyler can, but being aware that these are the things that we need to be looking at, because unfortunately there’s a lot of really unhelpful and frankly dangerous information out there sometimes about real estate and how the taxes work because, and Tyler, correct me if I’m wrong, but as we look at these, you mentioned there’s these two different requirements.

 

(10:18):

There’s a 750 hours that relates to any real estate professional activity that we’re doing, and then the 500 hours or a hundred hours, those other two requirements we talked about that’s specific to that particular property or investment or group of properties if we’re grouping those together. And so that’s a distinction I see get missed all the time. Someone recently forwarded to me a court case where the IRS as much as we like to make fun of the IRS they’re not dumb people there when they decide to ask questions, they’re gonna get in here. And to your point, if they see that you have a W2 and we’re full-time employee all year, you telling them, oh, well, yeah, of course they spent 500 hours on it. It’s like, that’s a little bit hard to believe. No, we’re throwing that out.

 

Tyler (10:56):

Exactly. And that’s like, not even to say, you know, the 500 hour rule is great, but really they have to do 750. And more than the W2 job. So like I said, it’s almost impossible. Yeah, absolutely. And it’s also highly audited because it’s misunderstood and people take it erroneously. So really with this, I mean, there’s nothing wrong with doing it there. It’s a hundred percent legitimate. It’s a valid strategy, but you need to make sure that you’re documenting everything you do. So I mean that’s really what it’s gonna come down to in the face of an audit. You’re gonna wanna have that documentation and not gonna be wanting to try to pull it together last minute. I mean, you got normally like 15 days to come up with that stuff when you’re in an audit and you might not even get the notice in the mail for for two weeks. So yeah.

 

Steven (11:42):

I appreciate you bringing up the documentation. I had that in my notes that piece is so critical for lots of tax paying strategies. But I would say in particular for this, because it is at a higher risk of being flagged by the IRS to say, Hey, wait, let’s go make sure that they’re really doing what they’re supposed to. So, really when we talk about the tax benefits of real estate, we wanna make sure we understand this distinction of is it passive or active because that’s going to affect how much of the benefit we can get in the current year. And then the next thing you mentioned was a cost segregation study. And it’s probably been a year or two ago now that we had someone on the podcast talking specifically about cost segregation studies, but it’s been a while, so give us the refresher on what does a cost segregation study do and why is that advantageous?

 

Tyler (12:23):

Absolutely. So I’ll try to make it simple. Normally if you buy a property, you’re gonna have the land and the building itself. And if you go to a CPA to capitalize that and start depreciating it, the IRS requires that you depreciate it over its deemed useful life. So either that’s 27 and a half years or 39 years for commercial property. And the downside with that, I used to, like, when I was first getting started with all this stuff, I would look at like Rich Dad, Poor Dad and Robert Kiyosaki, and he’s talking about like, offsetting your income with real estate. And I was like, what an idiot. Like this doesn’t work, what’s he talking about? And it’s because of passive rules. And I didn’t understand the idea of being able to do a cost seg. So what a cost seg does is it is an engineered study usually.

 

(13:07):

But you actually would have an engineer come out to the site and take a look at every single component that makes up that building. So they’d say, okay, well you got your doors and your handles and your appliances and everything. And they would basically say each of those things have, each of those components have a useful life per IRS per the code between like five, seven and even 15 year life. And the nice thing is you get to take that depreciation on those individual items in at a much faster rate. And post two, 2017, actually up until 2022, you’re able to, any of those class lives five, seven or 15 year years, you’re able to take a hundred percent of the cost in the first year as bonus depreciation. And so right now it’s 80% in 2023, that’s set to phase out by 20% every single year until it’s gone in 2026, I believe.

 

(14:01):

It’s the last year on that. But either way, it lets you get a huge deduction up front for purchasing the real estate. And that could range anywhere from 15 to 30% of your purchase price and even higher depending on the property. So what’s really great is if you put in a hundred thousand dollars into a million dollar property, 10% down, and then you got $300,000 of bonus depreciation outta that, if you’re in the top tax bracket, basically the tax refund of a little over a hundred thousand dollars is gonna have financed that entire property. So it’s kind of a neat way to continue to just snowball the amount of assets that you’re accumulating and it really reduces the risk as well. I mean, if you’re only $0 at risk into a property, it’s a little bit easier to make that investment.

 

Commercial (14:46):

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Steven (15:40):

Yeah, there’s certainly a lot of moving pieces here that are important to keep straight. And this is definitely an area where I don’t have a problem with people who wanna DIY your taxes or DIY their own taxes, but just to make this really clear that that wasn’t like a suggestion or a recommendation that this, like you have an engineer come and do this. Like, you are not going to DIY a cost segregation study like that. That is not how this works. This isn’t, let me get on TurboTax and I’ll go ahead and decide how much, what the useful life of the doors is. Like if you’re gonna go down this route, you’re gonna hire a professional and you’re gonna do this the right way, or you’re gonna get yourself into a lot of trouble.

 

Tyler (16:13):

It’s true. I would definitely recommend getting an engineer study and actually funny enough, there are some DIY options and it might make sense when you’re talking a lot smaller properties. But yeah, if you’re gonna try to offset a huge amount of income do it the right way you don’t wanna mess it up. So yeah, there, the DIY options are software, so literally you’re just like entering questions and it’s just online and it costs maybe $500 instead of 5,000. But at the end of the day, it’s not advisable if you’re aiming for big numbers, don’t DIY it, don’t do it.

 

Steven (16:49):

Don’t do it yourself. That’s a great recommendation. So then Tyler, you mentioned depreciation recapture, which I’m really glad you brought that up. This is a topic that even if you’re not someone who, or you’re not working with clients who want to go the large real estate route and are investing millions of dollars, I see this come up on just, you know, rental properties that someone, you know, it was their second home now they started renting out even on the simpler and smaller side of things, depreciation recapture can come as a surprise to taxpayers and it’s never a welcome surprise. It’s, oh wait, suddenly I have to pay way more taxes than I expected. So Tyler, give us a quick overview of what is depreciation recapture and why is this catch so many people?

 

Tyler (17:29):

Yeah, so the main idea of depreciation recapture is quite often you’re making money in real estate, and you have a large gain and you got an ordinary tax deduction when you depreciated the property. And so depreciation, recapture is one of the ways the IRS tries to generate more revenue. And when you sell the property, basically any depreciation you took on the property, you have to pick that back up as ordinary income. So when you sell it, you know, let’s say you’re in a 24% tax bracket when you took the depreciation and then 10 years down the road you’re in the 37% tax bracket, you’re gonna be picking that back up as ordinary income in that year. So you need to understand that you’re gonna be picking that up at some point and you need to plan for that or plan around that.

 

Steven (18:17):

Yeah. So, to put this in terms of what the tax rates look like, that really the IRS is trying to accomplish is that if I have a rental property that I’ve had rental income for the last 10 years, and each year I took $10,000 of depreciation, that reduced my ordinary income each of those years. And if I’m in the, you know, 22%, 24, let’s say the 24% bracket my ordinary income was reduced or the amount of tax I would’ve paid was reduced $2,400 each of those years. And so then when I go to sell the property and now all of a sudden this is a capital gain because I’ve held it for 10 years and may most likely I’m probably in that 15% bracket. The IRS says, wait a second. We gave you a benefit at 24% for 10 years, we’re not gonna now let you get the benefit from the sale at only 15%. They’re trying to kinda level set this and there’s definitely some nuance and complications there between depending on the type of property and, you know, and some different things there. So this is another area where if you’d like to go the TurboTax route and do it yourself I wish you all the best. These are typically areas where I start really strongly encouraging people. This is when you need to work with a tax professional.

 

Tyler (19:19):

It gets very much in the weeds. And so real estate is considered what’s called 1250 property. Not that we need to get too deep into that, but there is a preferential rate that they have it set at so that it’s not totally unfair. So if you were taking straight line depreciation, which is what an average passive investor’s going to do, they do cap it. So the most, the highest rate that they’re able to tax your depreciation recapture is 25%. And then anything above that amount is gonna be capital gains. You’re gonna get a 15% rate, I mean a zero to 15 to 20% rate depending on, on your tax bracket you’re in. But I guess what, at the end of the day, if you have 1250 property, that’s kind of a good thing to have.

 

(20:05):

So real estate kind of checks that box. The pitfall is depreciation, recapture on anything that you did a cost tag on. In most cases, if it’s equipment or furniture or doors that has a life that’s less than the 30 years, it’s gonna be a different type of property called 1245. And so you do get that recaptured at the ordinary rate, which is up to 37%. So there’s a distinction there. And so that’s where you need to be careful with a cost tag. I will say that if you have land improvements like a pool or, you know, landscaping or anything that they assign that cost basis to, then it does get treated, you get to bonus it, and then you also get to treat it as 1250 or basically with that 25% cap. So there is a little bit of a best of both worlds there, but just, I just wanted to throw that out cuz one of the most recent clients I worked with had a lot of real estate with pools and lots of land improvements and about 20% of her purchase price was allocated towards that.

 

(21:02):

And so in the future when she goes to sell this, they’re solidly in the 20, the 37% tax bracket if she ever decides to sell, which I don’t think she does, but if she did, she would be now taxed at only 25%. So it’s still kind of a best of both worlds approach there, but like it, like you said taxes are extremely nuanced, so just work with a professional, it’s just so much easier.

 

Steven (21:28):

And so again, for our listeners if you’re madly taking notes on all the percentages and code sections that we’re talking about, just stop for a second. You can come back and listen to this again, there’s great information out there, follow Tyler on LinkedIn, all of those kinds of things. But the purpose of this conversation for our listeners is to make you more aware of some of the nuances that are out there so that you can be asking the questions so that when a client comes to you who’s been, you know, a DIYer forever, but is getting into some of these things for the first time, or is getting ready to sell some of these properties or whatever it might look like, that you have enough information that you can say, you know what, we really need to engage a professional here. We need to make sure we get this done right. That we are setting good expectations. Because while that depreciation recapture isn’t a reason not to do the real estate investments, it’s something we wanna be aware of so we can manage expectations and plan accordingly. Knowing about it doesn’t make it magically go away, but being surprised by it makes it a lot more painful.

 

Tyler (22:24):

And the nice thing is if you’re getting professional advice, it’s a business expense. So I mean, think about it that way. So if you’re getting a CPA to help you with the real estate and they’re advising you and helping you, that’s a business deduction. And I would even say if your CPA knows what they’re doing, they might know to allocate some of that advisor fees. Like if your financial advisor’s helping, they could potentially allocate some of that towards your rental properties as well. So, you know, it’s a good area if you’re an advisor, maybe to just have that on your radar. I mean, you have to be reasonable with it, but that’s something that you could potentially do and it would be a low risk area to get an extra deduction.

 

Steven (23:00):

Yeah, great recommendation. So Tyler, before we get to action, I was talking about real estate. I mean, you mentioned 1202 at the top of the episode, and this is a topic we could spend hours on all on its own, but I hear come up sometimes I know enough to dabble in it and be a little bit dangerous, but for our listeners, I mean, what’s the high level? Well, what should they know about this wonderful section 1202 that’s potentially incredibly advantageous when it applies?

 

Tyler (23:28):

Yeah, I mean, really, you’re gonna want to be looking at 1202 when you’re getting into an investment. I mean, you might get lucky. We’ve had a couple clients that got lucky and stumbled into this wonderful section of the code. But basically section 1202, it was a way that the government was trying to stimulate the economy and provide growth through investment into small business. And basically the idea is if you buy stock in a corporation, it has to be a qualified corporation. And I could get into the details of what that includes, but basically if it’s a product based business and it’s a C-corp and you own the stock, when you sell the stock, you can exclude up to 10 million of the capital gain from your ordinary, from your income tax. And it’s either 10 million or 10 times your basis when you made the investment.

 

(24:17):

So the numbers can be pretty big. Qualifying corporation has to have less than 50 million in net assets, and it has to be in the right businesses, usually product service. Product businesses are a grand slam there. Tech also usually qualifies because they’re usually products. But yeah, it’s just a great thing. And the final thing that’s really important, it’s just a high level highlight there is you do have to hold the stock for at least five years before you sell it. So there is a little bit of a holding period you have to go through, and there are some ways to roll over that stock and basically if you have to sell early, you could roll it into a different qualifying corporation and complete your holding period then. But anyway, it’s just a really neat thing because we’re able to find our clients 10 million, but then quite often, 20, 30, $40 million of exclusion if they plan properly around it.

 

Steven (25:08):

So really, is this something you wanna be thinking about? This, this isn’t gonna apply, this isn’t, Hey, I went and bought Apple stock and Apple manufacturers products, and so, hey, does this 1202 apply? That’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about small businesses, we’re talking about something that we’re planning for upfront, typically businesses that are in that product creation space or technology. But again, this is area where as an advisor, it’s not something you want to become an expert yourself on. It’s something that you want to know to be able to ask some questions. If you’re working with clients in that space where we’re talking about small businesses, C-Corps and just planning for the future because this is one that, and like you mentioned Tyler, I mean we’re talking about potentially tens of millions getting excluded from taxable income if we’re planning correctly for this.

 

Tyler (25:52):

Yeah. So I mean, I would be taking a look at this. If you’re looking to start a business, it’s in the right category. It’s a product build business, and you do plan to sell eventually. Yeah, because a lot of people are gonna push the tax benefits of an S-corp, which it’s marginally better if you do an S-corp versus a C-corp for income tax purposes in those income earning years. But if you’re planning on having losses at the beginning of the business and you get to carry those over and at the end of the day, you’re gonna save a lot of money on taxes if your plan is to actually sell. So again, you just have to begin with the end in mind on this because if you never plan to sell, there’s no point in doing it.

 

Steven (26:31):

Yeah, that’s a great point. Well Tyler, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your insight on these things. We always like to make sure that we’re taking information and turning it into value, which for us means turning it into action. And so, I mean, we touched on a lot of really detailed kind of nuanced things around real estate and then talking about section 1202 there at the end. But as you think about how you work with clients or how you see financial advisors work with clients around real estate, what are actions you would recommend to listeners of this podcast to either learn more or do more around real estate?

 

Tyler (27:00):

Yeah. it’s a good question. I would say you need to understand what the client’s interested in, you know, if they’re interested in, that’s one of the first things I ask is like, Hey, you guys are wanting to save money in tax or whatever, what are you willing to do? I know that sounds awful, it kind of sounds bad, but what I mean to say is like, if you’re willing to make the facts meet your, you know, willing to implement a strategy and make the facts work, it could save you a ton of money. And so that would be one thing. And then just, yeah, I guess just evaluating whether or not that real estate that person owns is active or passive also, I mean, if you’re an advisor, you need to be looking at schedule E and 85, what, 8582? I’m forgetting the form name. Oops. But you need to be looking to see if they have any passive loss carryovers and if they have lots of passive losses in a lot of sense ways that’s a lot of the ways the CPA can add value, but people are always worried about the taxes or depreciation, recapture, if there’s passive losses sitting there on the tax return those get eaten up when you sell. And so there’s, your planning could be a lot easier if you’re looking at that as well.

 

Steven (28:03):

That’s a great recommendation, Tyler, I mean, one of the things we talk about all the time we talk about action items is not just getting the tax return for every one of your clients, but getting all of the pages, and especially for anyone involved in real estate that Schedule E is essential. Looking at that, those passive losses and to your point that you just made it, it’s not that, I mean, you can be a passive investor, have passive real estate income and still get a tax benefit eventually. And so we wanna make sure that we plan accordingly. It’s all about having that understanding the different pieces so that we’re in incorporating those into the plan that we have or setting good expectations. And again, if nothing else that you know enough to ask the questions and to point your client in the direction of a professional that you can collaborate with if it goes deeper.

 

Tyler (28:42):

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, great point. Especially, yeah, I don’t, I don’t think you have to know everything. You just have to be able to recognize what’s going on and know who to, you know, who to contact for help.

 

Steven (28:51):

Yeah. Well, again, Tyler, I really appreciate your time today. I know that you’re a great follow on LinkedIn. I follow your content often. So for anyone listening, if you’re looking to learn more, especially about real estate and about tax strategies applicable to those eight and nine figure entrepreneurs get on LinkedIn and follow Tyler. Tyler, anything else that people should do to follow along with what you’re doing?

 

Tyler (29:12):

You know, LinkedIn’s great. I also started a podcast about a week ago. So it’s growing slowly, but yeah, if you wanna jump on and like, basically the intention behind that is if I post something on LinkedIn, it’s really difficult to get into the weeds and talk about specific things. And so the idea of the podcast is simply, Hey, this is a 10 to 15 minute episode to explain specifically what’s going on behind the scenes and try to get a little bit more detailed with some of this stuff. So that’s my intention. I’m currently on Spotify. I’ve not figured out all the how to get it on everything else yet, but I’m working on that.

 

Steven (29:48):

And what’s the name of the podcast?

 

Tyler (29:49):

Tax Optimization Podcast.

 

Steven (29:52):

Nice. Tax Optimization Podcast. Top there. There you go. I’m not a marketing expert. Please don’t take that for anything. All right. Well, Tyler, thanks for being here. For our listeners thanks for tuning in this week. And until next time, good luck out there. And remember to tip your server, not the IRS!