Transcript

Steven Jarvis:

Hello everyone! And welcome to the next episode of the Retirement Tax Services Podcast: Financial Professionals Edition. I am your host, Steven Jarvis, CPA. In this show, I teach financial advisors how to deliver massive value to their clients through tax planning. On the show with me today, I have Lisa Nicer, who is an enrolled agent with over 25 years of experience. 19 of those years on her own with her own practice. She focuses on individual tax and places a huge emphasis on education and really sees, you know, filing the tax return really is just the starting point. Not the most important way she can deliver value to her clients. So Lisa, welcome to the show. I’m so excited to have you.

Lisa Niser:

Thank you so much. I’m excited to speak with you.

SJ:

Well, as a starting point, I would love to talk about the fact that I’m a CPA and you’re an enrolled agent and what on earth that should mean to financial advisors when they’re looking for tax preparers.

CPA’s Vs. Enrolled Agents For Tax Preparation (1:24)

LN:

That’s a really great question. And a lot of people are really unfamiliar with the enrolled agent, because if you go through undergrad and you get an accounting degree, you go get your CPA. Well, this is not my first career. And so when I went to switch, the CPA exam is four parts. I think it’s law, audit, tax and finance, if I’m correct. So that’s a quarter of it is texts. The enrolled agent exam is all on tax, or a hundred percent on tax. So one, it’s a good indicator of that, but the only difference really is I can prepare financial statements and sign up on corporate audits. Well, as you discussed, I don’t want to do audits. I only want to do tax. So if you really want a tax expert, either a CPA or an EA, both can provide you with that. I can represent clients before the IRS exactly the same as the CPA can. Uh, like I said, the only difference really is I can’t do corporate audits, which is not an issue for me. So if you’re looking for someone, either one, we’ll get you that I think it’s more important to know what their focus area is and what their niche is. I focus just on individuals and small businesses that file on a 1040. I just think the tax laws are so complex and changing so quickly these days that it would be impossible for anyone to stay on top at the tax laws for everything. So I think, you know, if you have a certain, I work with a lot of attorneys, I worked with a lot of entrepreneurs. I look with a lot of venture capital partners. So I’m very familiar with the type of investments they have, people with equity options, equity compensation, that’s way more important than differentiation between the CPA and the EA in my opinion.

SJ:

Yeah, at least I completely agree. That’s such a great way to describe it. A lot of times CPA gets used synonymously with tax preparer, but that’s really not accurate because to your point, unless you need a corporate financial statement, audit and relation, who’s got quality experience and focuses on the same type of clients that you use. Yeah, that’s going to be a great partner for you. I mean, as we recruit and add people to our RTS tax team, I’m looking for both CPAs and enrolled agents. To me, that’s not a determining factor on which person I should hire. I’m looking at what types of clients, like the things that you’re talking about of do they focus on the type of clients that have the type of experience I’m looking for. So, I think that’s a really great description of how to look at that.

LN:

I also went back and got my master’s in tax. So again, that’s just a strict tax focus. So that combined with the EA is probably more focused education than if I went and spent all that time studying for the CPA exam.

SJ:

Yeah. Both are great credentials. There are people with either credential doing great work around taxes, but I guess the point of this conversation is don’t get hung up on, you have to have a CPA doing your taxes. Look for people who are credentialed, whether that’s CPAs or enrolled agents and who have the type of experience that’s going to benefit your clients. That’s really going to help find those value opportunities and not just check the box on compliance. Compliance of course is important, but that’s actually what we kind of want to pivot to talk about is how do we go beyond just compliance and get to value? And so Lisa, as you and I were getting ready for the show, we were talking about different things that you look for when you’re reviewing a tax return. And again, go way beyond just, ‘Hey, did this get reported correctly?’ to ‘How do we identify ways to add value to my clients?’ So if you want to talk about some of those things, you look for, that would be great.

The Power of HSAs (04:41)

LN:

One of the ones that’s really a hot topic right now is HSAs – Health Savings Accounts. And so, if you made a contribution to, or took a distribution from a health savings account – which is like a flexible medical spending account – for those with high deductible plans, there’s a form 8889 in the tax return. And the top section shows contributions. The bottom section shows distributions. If I see that there are distributions, one of the things that I always discuss is the fact that you don’t have to take money out. It’s not a use it or lose it like a flexible medical spending account. So, what’s great is I think this is probably the best savings vehicle out there. Is you put money in and it’s tax deductible, it grows tax free. And if you use it for qualified medical expenses, there’s no tax coming out, right? Tax deferred, I guess, and then tax free.

LN:

So it can be used as another retirement account. It’s just for medical expenses in retirement, which we’re all going to have. So, if you have other funds with which to pay your deductible with, then I recommend just putting the max in every year. It’s the max for families. What $7,200 right now/ So that’s like another IRA for you. The only thing was that if you’re doing that mixture, you go in and actually invest the funds. Don’t just leave it in whatever the default is. And also make sure that when you’re doing your asset allocation, that your financial advisor is aware that you have this other account, because it should be a part of your overall strategy. But that’s a great one. I mean, there’s not an account out there that’s better than that.

SJ:

Yeah. Those are all really great points. The other thing I always like to add on HSHS is that there isn’t a time limit on when you can reimburse yourself from your HSA. And so, as long as you’re keeping documentation of the expenses, uh, you could get five years down the road and whether it’s it’s a cash-flow issue or just your HSA is getting to the point where you don’t think you’re going to be able to use it all in retirement, you can go back and reimburse yourself from expenses, years prior, as long as the HSA existed during that year. So, if you set up an HSA in 2021, you can’t go back and reimburse yourself from 2015. But if I set it up in 2021 and I get to 2030, and I say, you know what, I’ve got more in this account or whatever life situation I’m in that I want to be able to use those HSA funds. I can go all the way back to the year I created it and reimburse expenses from that far back. So it’s a really powerful tool!

LN:

Right? And the other thing I thought of is you can like an IRA, make contributions to it on your tax return. So, if you did not select the max contribution through your employer, you could just go onto the website for your HSA and contribute the rest at tax time to max it out. So, I recommend that to everybody. That’s just like a no brainer to me, if you have one of those high deductible plans.

SJ:

Yeah. So that’s a great thing to make sure is on your tax return review checklist for advisors listening that form 8889 is where the HSA activity gets reported. And that’s again, just these things that we can add in there that we can quickly check and see, okay, is this a conversation piece for our next conversation? Are they taking distributions? And I like the way you phrase that as this is a conversation with a client – do they have other funds? Is this an option? This isn’t some we’re going to mandate from them, but it shows that we’re looking out for them, that we’re not just trying to file their return and move on, but that we’re really looking out for what they have going on. Love that around the HSA. What’s another area you’re looking for as you review tax returns?

Schedule C and employing your children (08:08)

LN:

So I work with a ton of small business owners that file on a schedule C and then there’s a couple things related to that. The first is if they have a schedule C and they have children that are of school age, one of the best things you can do is employ your children and deduct it from your business income. Now, there are a couple of caveats. It has to be, they actually have to do work. And I do recommend making a contract with them of listing the tasks. It’s gotta be tasks that are applicable to your business and you cannot pay them more than the going rate for that. So, you know, you can’t pay them a hundred thousand dollars to go, you know, fine, you know, for example, but what’s great is up until age 17 and you pay your kids, you do not have to pay social security and Medicare taxes for them.

LN:

So you save that and up to the standard deduction for a single taxpayer, which is 12,550 for this year, there’s no tax to the child. So you’re basically taking money that you’d be paying tax on and making it tax free by shifting it to your child. Plus you’re teaching them good, you know, work ethic and other things, getting some help there. And then the bonus part is up to 6,000, know the lower of their earned income or $6,000 can then go into a Roth for them because they have earned income. So, I mean, it’s like a home run for everybody. Um, I think it’s great. And especially when it’s hard for kids to get jobs, you know, if you’re a 14 – 15, whatever, there’s lots of, can they do your social media? Can they do your filing? Can they do your shredding? Can they make appointments? I mean, you have to be creative in the job, but there’s lots of things your kids can do. And it’s a real, win-win. The other thing with the Roth IRAs is even if they don’t work for you, if they got a summer job, I tell grandparents the best Christmas present you can give is tell them to make that Roth IRA contribution. I mean, it’s a great gift. It’s a great gift. As long as they have earned income, you can deposit the lower of 6,000 or their earned income.

SJ:

Yeah. And you can’t get a better situation than having your after tax dollars having been taxed at 0%, that is my favourite tax rate. So, that’s a great way to get her started.

LN:

Right. And then when it comes to self-employed, there’s two things on schedule one, there’s some adjustments related to self-employed taxpayers. There’s two, there’s a line for retirement plans and there’s a line for health insurance. So, if you see someone has any kind of self-employment income and there’s nothing on that line for retirement plans, I will talk to them about that because that’s one of the things you can do after tax after year end, before you file your return as well. But some people think that if they have a 401(k) from work, they can’t do that. The earned income from work is different than this self-employment income. So, even if you have a side hustle, you can be putting money away into that. And you can, like I said, you, it’s just one of those things like an IRA you can do up until the filing deadline.

LN:

And so that’s a really nice way. The reason why it’s on that form and not on the schedule C is just like your 401(k) or retirement plans from work. You pay social security and Medicare tax on those dollars currently. And then when it’s distributed, you’re only paying income tax on it. That’s why it’s on that line. And the same holds true for health insurance. If no one in your household is covered by an employer plan and you have self-employment income, you can deduct health insurance premiums up to the amount of your profit there. So it’s pre-taxed just like it would be if you worked for an employer. So if you have some of those, you know, like the health insurance, especially, and you didn’t take it, you can go back and amend and correct it. I really encourage people not to amend and to really catch things up front because the IRS is taking forever to process them. I mean, it’s six months plus to process it. But if you didn’t do it on a prior year return, I think it’s a great way to do it because health insurance is so pricey to begin with.

SJ:

Yeah, so many good things in there. You’re really just helping everyone listening, whether they have a tax return review checklist they already use or working on creating one. There’s a lot of good things in there that, this is almost kind of a decision tree or a flow chart. If you’re working with someone who has a schedule C you should automatically be going to schedule one and saying, okay, are there amounts? And not just are there amounts, but do those amounts make sense? If it’s blank, here’s an opportunity to help them get started. If there’s more room to contribute additional amounts, because it’s schedule one to the 1040 may or may not be there, whether they have a schedule C or not. But if they do have a schedule C you should immediately be going to say, ‘Hey, are these things there?’

SJ:

You also bring up a really good point about working with clients tax preparers, or even if they’re DIY tax preparers, of making sure that there’s really proactive communication early in the process, because trying to get your return amended right now is not a quick process at all. The IRS is backlogged for months! Literally months representing, you know, millions of transactions they need to get figured out. And so taking the time to build effective relationships, taking the time to find tax preparers, you can refer your clients to who like Lisa talked about earlier, you know, are focused on the niche you serve, who have quality experience, regardless of whether they’re a CPA or an enrolled agent. Put a real quick plug in here in two weeks, we have a webinar for RTS that we’re going to talk about some of your tax planning. And then we’re going to talk about an opportunity for advisors to maybe look at this a little bit differently as far as how they partner with CPAs or enrolled agents. So be sure and register and attend that webinar to learn more about that. Okay, great. So we’ve talked about HSA, we talked about some things to look for on schedule C. We had talked about a few other things before we hit record. So why don’t you highlight a few more things for us Lisa?

IRAs and Roth IRAs (13:34)

LN:

Okay, well, let’s talk about IRAs and Roth IRAs. So, one is if your client ever made a non-deductible IRA contribution for the rest of their life, they should have a form 8606, which tracks their basis in that IRA, in their return, so that you add in each courier. But even if they didn’t add one, you should always have that in the return because when they take money out in retirement, then a portion of each distribution is a return of that capital or contribution. And sometimes not without that form, you’re gonna pay tax again, you’re gonna double tax those funds. So that doesn’t make sense. And, if you see those 8606, with that, you can talk to them about Roth conversions because they obviously have an IRA and potentially backdoor Roth. Roth conversions, I think are really good because, you know, yes, you’re paying tax today, but the tax rates are as low as they’ve ever been.

LN:

And all future growth is free and there’s no required distributions from a Roth. So those are the real benefits of the Roth. We tend to do it till the top of the next bracket that they’re in. So that’s some planning there. You know, it depends if it’s a 2% increase to the next bracket, maybe it’s worth doing, especially with taxes going up. The backdoor Roth though, is really, you can’t have anything in your traditional IRA because otherwise you’re going to pay tax on it. But the idea of a backdoor Roth is to make a Roth contribution. You make a non-deductible contribution and then immediately roll it over. And that will run through that 8606. So do not be surprised when you get a 1099 R form. Yes, it will show that there was a distribution, but nothing will end up taxable on your return. It just flows that form to show it was converted.

LN:

So you might see that on page two of the 8606, if they’ve been doing Roth conversions there, but if they’re not making those non deductibles and they have extra cash, you know, that is going into their taxable funds at the end of the year. Maybe they want to make non deductible contributions. You know, because I always tell people, it’s like, in order to retire, you have to have more than your 401(k) or your IRA. I mean, you have to save that. That’s not going to be enough for the majority of people, but any opportunities you can have to get that money into there, you should take advantage of, in my opinion.

SJ:

It’s a great topic to highlight for advisors. When, when you’re trying to build relationships with tax preparers, or you trying to screen tax preparers as potential referral sources for your clients. When you sit down and meet with one of those tax preparers, ask them how they handle form 8606. I mean least I love how you’re describing it, but unfortunately you looking at it that way is probably the exception with tax preparers, not the rule because many tax preparers do get focused on, ‘Hey, let’s get this year’s return filed.’ And when it comes to form 8606, you know, they’re going to file it in years where there’s activity. A lot of times they get the left out on years where there isn’t activity. And so this is a great screening tool for advisors when they’re looking for good referral sources to say, ‘Hey, you know, talk to me about how you handle form 8606.’ And if they give an explanation like Lisa just did… super, you’re going to have a great relationship on that particular aspect. But if they’re like, ‘oh, well, we file it if we need to.’ And you know, they’ve got some vague answer about it, maybe that’s not where we’re referring our clients.

LN:

Absolutely.

SJ:

So, Lisa, one of the other areas you had mentioned that I was really interested in was how you look at activity around capital gains and losses. So talk a little bit about how you review a return for those kinds of opportunities.

Activity around Capital Gains and Losses (17:00)

LN:

So when I have a new client, obviously we look at, or even a current client, you know, if there’s a capital loss carry forward, because you’re only allowed to use $3,000 of losses in excess of your game, which has been the same threshold for as long as I’ve been doing taxes. It makes me crazy! What I highlighted when I shared the draft return with the client, I’m like, ‘look, you have this much carry over.’ So that they can work with their financial advisor or for their own knowledge to say, ‘Hey, going forward, I can soak up up to X amount of gains with that. But that’s huge because yes, you can use $3,000 a year in excess, but you can use all of it in one year, if you have enough gains for that. So that’s a biggie, but the other thing. Well, there’s two things, one is capital loss harvesting, which a lot of people are aware.

LN:

But if you are aware that the taxpayer had some big capital gains, most people probably have some duds or things that are done in their portfolio that you can sell to offset that. And you just want to make sure to not re-buy it within 31 days, if you want to still have it. So you don’t have a wash sale. And also I tell people that’s best used with short-term gains obviously. You know, long-term gains maybe you don’t want to offset because they’re taxed at a lower rate than your ordinary income is, but that’s a big one. The last thing that you and I talked about, which, because I’m seeing so much more equity compensation these days, is if you see a line year to year, have a big sale from the employees company stock, they’re probably getting equity compensation. And so that opens up the door to a lot of different discussions of, you know, how much equity compensation do you have, what percentage of your portfolio is it?

LN:

You don’t want to have it all in one basket, you know, do you have a strategy for getting out, do you know where let’s talk with your tax preparer because that hits your tax return. And when they put into income, they typically only withhold 22%, which usually is not enough for most people. So, I think that’s a big one because I see a lot of executives with, or people with company stock that just way too much of their portfolios in that stock. And, to educate them on, you can still make really good money and profit by having a balanced portfolio versus having all your ducks in one basket. I think the more times they hear it and have someone with them with a plan, the more likely they’re going to be to address that. Cause I’m seeing right now, it’s mostly RSUs, but there were years that I didn’t see it at all. And I see it a lot now, a lot more people are doing equity compensation.

SJ:

Yeah. This is kind of a great addition to the conversation that we often have on this podcast of, of all the things that you can learn from a tax return. And so, making sure that you’re looking, you’re not just looking at schedule D to see if they have capital gains activity, but you’re specifically looking at what, what companies are in there, what stocks are they buying and selling and is the company they work for in there? It’s a great conversation starter with the client to say, oh, you work for GE. I see that you’ve got some capital gains for GE stock. Can we talk about where this is coming from and make sure there’s a strategy to your point?

LN:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SJ:

Right. So Lisa, before we transition to action items, one of the things that we real often recommend to our advisors is that they prepare what we call a 1099 letter or year-end tax letter that they can give to their clients and their client’s tax preparers to really kind of collaborate and share information that the advisors learning throughout the year, you know, things like, you know, here’s the accounts and which ones should have 1099, which ones would be the QCDs from, things like that. From your perspective as a tax preparer, what else should be going into a letter like that? What would be helpful for you to know as you get to tax time?

Lisa’s take on the year-end tax letter and client communication (20:25)

LN:

Um, one thing that comes to mind is if any of the accounts were closed, that’s always a big one because otherwise I have to track down their client because they didn’t get it. And I’m like, well, what about this accountant? They rarely know. And then often that’s also helpful if sometimes they switch account numbers during the year or they switch holders during the year, that’s really helpful to know. That’s the biggest. And really just, is there anything that’s different or new to be expected in there, but that really should be conversations throughout the year. I mean, just like how I tell clients that your tax returns should be like your annual review at work, where it’s just a summary of conversations you have throughout the year. And there shouldn’t be any surprises. The best way to not only build a strong relationship with accountants, but also to really set yourself apart in terms of your service to your clients is to be in constant communication during the year.

So if you sell a large holding during the year, you talk to your partner team, not only the client, but also their accountant so that you can do planning. I mean, maybe there are other things they could do. Maybe that’s the year for a donor-advised fund or donating stuff. I mean, without knowing I can only help when I’m involved in it. I have too many clients. I can’t track everybody down. So you have to be an active participant in the process, taxes and finances. You don’t have to know it all I tell people, but you have to be involved and you have to ask questions. So the best thing you could do is like learn and just say, ‘Hey, I heard on this podcast, there’s this and this credit am I eligible for this? Or I heard there’s this kind of investment. Can you tell me more about that?’

LN:

That’s really the best thing you can do for yourself is just learn and ask questions. And maybe it doesn’t apply to you, but maybe it does, or maybe it applies to your mom or your friend or whatever. So, I think that’s the best one for me is to just stay an active participant in the relationship because, you know, and if people are calling you asking for help with basis information or other things, you know, at tax time, obviously the more responsive you can be, the more appreciative they are. And it usually is at the last minute of stuff. Oh, the other thing is, I think now it’s not as much of an issue, but you know, when you transfer over a client’s holdings from another firm to you make sure that all that basic information is in there, correct? Because otherwise they get the sales time and they’re like, well, that’s not what it was. I’m like, ‘well, that’s, what’s in there so well.’ Or if they have inherited securities, that’s a big one to make sure it’s at that date of death value, because I see that form frequently.

SJ:

Yeah. Lots of great stuff in there. I really appreciate that, Lisa, at the end of the day, this is all about serving the mutual client as effectively as possible. Because while some of that stuff that you’re talking about certainly makes your life as a tax preparer easier. Really what it’s doing is making sure that the end clients think that things are getting reported correctly, that there’s time to identify opportunities and do something about it. If the first time and advisors reaching out to the tax preparer is in February or March and the calendar year is already turned over. There’s things we’ve already missed out on. I really like that encouragement to have regular communication, really proactive communication, that the more open and transparent that can be the better off the client is going to be.

LN:

Exactly, exactly, really is about that because we can co-educate the clients. And there’s lots of times I’m like, you know, if I see that there’s just tons of capital sales, for instance, it’s like, I’m wondering is the financial advisor, you know, talking about what the strategy is with that are people, are they just turning sales there? Do you know what I mean? Sometimes they’ll be like, oh look at you. And they don’t understand sometimes that like not showing income currently is a good thing. Like they have growth. Can you go back and look at your statement? Did your net worth, you know, your account value grow? Oh, that’s good because there’s no income currently. The things that throw up income should be in your retirement accounts, the things that are growth stocks should be in your taxable accounts. And I explained that to people, but it’s good to get it from both ends. So, the more you can communicate, oh, I’m selling off this because whatever I can help reinforce your reasoning for that. Because sometimes they listen to me more because I talked to them more often. Sometimes they don’t listen to me at all, but, you know!

SJ:

Well, and fair or not, tax preparers tend to get more of the benefit of the doubt from clients than advisors do. And that’s something else we’ve talked about in the podcast. That’s not something I can change or fix anytime soon. But I really liked that, that the more proactive that communication is, the more of a team approach that can be. You know, I liked that. You said that you can reinforce those messages, that if the advisors taking the time to communicate the why, then we’re all coming at this from the same direction, which again, helps add value to the client.

LN:

Exactly. And that’s really what it is, is, you know, money and retirement and all this stuff is just really stressful for people because we interact with it and we’re never taught about it. So, I mean, I’ve had corporate executives that can run huge companies that can’t handle their personal finances because they weren’t taught about it. So the best value we can give is to just ease people’s stress, you know? And it’s like, we don’t have to give them all the details, but we need to, you need to be an active participant. Definitely. I don’t want, I’m not a return preparer. You know, if you want just a return prepared for you then, don’t come to me. Hahaha!

SJ:

Yeah. Cause you really make a point of saying that you were a tax advisor, not a tax preparer, that there’s more to this than just preparing tax returns.

LN:

Exactly. Yeah. Tax season is just not fun for anybody. Let’s just get real, especially these last couple of years. And you know, the last two years we’ve had extended tax seasons. So this upcoming year, they may not. And so, you know, I’ve also heard that there is a shortage of accountants. So, you know, do not be surprised if you see increases in accountants. And if you have a good accountant, someone said this to me, the money you pay your account as an investment, it’s an asset to you that will pay off versus an expense because that way it’s, it makes sense to you to pay. What’s the value of having, you know, me on speed dial to pick up for any kind of questions you have there’s value to that, right? I mean, I answer it, spend more time with my clients. Than, you know, a doctor’s visit is 15 minutes and you pay your copay and people don’t really, you know, say anything because they’re paying their copay. They don’t think about all the premiums they paid to get that service. And I give them much more time. So I’m like, there’s a lot of value, but if you see it as an investment in getting good financial advice, I think you’ll see it very differently and view it very differently. And it’s something that is completely worth investing in both a financial advisor, insurance agent, you know, state attorney. I think they’re all really crucial parts of your financial team.

SJ:

Totally agree.

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SJ:

Alright Lisa we’re getting close to the end of our time. So let’s switch really quick and talk about action items for listeners. Uh, cause we want to make sure that we are taking this information and turn it into action so that it has value. You go first based on the conversation that we’ve had, what’s something that you would recommend listeners do to take action on what we’ve talked about.

Action Items (28:10)

LN:

So I have two. One is, I really recommend everyone, especially this year to do a tax projection for 2021. You know, with this advanced health tax credit, which is different from the stimulus payments, you may have to pay it back if you overpaid, changes, you know, people have multiple jobs that always messes with their tax return. I just think it’s a great time to see where you’re at. And to know if you need to make adjustments, you can make adjustments now, if you want to make charitable contributions, you want to sell stock. It’s just a really good investment. Before you head into the holiday season, you know, how much money is yours? How much money it’s not yours and you were boy surprises. People are a little stressed out. The other thing I recommend, I’m going to toot my own horn here a little bit is if you are self-employed and financial advisors can refer to this as well.

LN:

I have a workshop called ‘What New Entrepreneurs Need to Understand About Taxes’. And it goes over those big picture things so that you understand, so that if you have any kind of consulting income or side gig or anything else that you understand upfront what’s deductible, what’s not deductible. That you’re going to pay self-employment taxes. I just think that that is so worth understanding, because if you are going into business for yourself, you have to make money in order to stay in business. And people forget about that. And so, having a financial statement at the end of the year, really doesn’t do no good with decision-making and the workshop comes with an hour of consultation with me. So I can answer your questions on that. Or if you want to do a tax projection in that time, you can do that as well. But I just think that, you know, you’re starting your business you’re good at, you’re probably not that excited about the numbers side. At least know how to get yourself set up and what’s deductible on that. So you can be smart about it.

SJ:

Love it. We’ll make sure there’s a link to that in the show notes. The other action I would really recommend was Lisa and I went through this conversation is that if you don’t have a tax return review checklist that you use, create one. And if you have one, as you listen to this or other content, make sure that you’re updating and make sure that you’re, you’re learning and continually improving the value that you’re delivering to clients. Aside from that, of course, we love it. If you follow us on social media on LinkedIn, we always appreciate reviews. And those five star reviews on apple podcasts so that we continue to grow our podcast. Thanks everyone for listening. And until next time, remember to tip your server and not the IRS!