Transcript

Steven Jarvis, CPA (0051
Hello everyone and welcome to the next episode of the Retirement Tax Services Podcast Financial Professionals Edition. I’m your host Steven Jarvis, CPA, and I am very excited for this week’s episode because we get to dive into a topic that comes up quite often, but I’m probably a little too casual about actually helping financial advisors address because I’m not a financial advisor myself and so I can give you talking points, but not first-hand experience. Joining me on the show this week,very excited to have Shelby Nichol from Muriel Consulting to talk to us all about how advisors can think about the situation they find themselves in and how to evaluate whether it’s time to make a move. Shelby, welcome to the show.

Shelby Nicholl (01:31)
Thanks so much for having me.

Steven Jarvis, CPA (01:32)
So Shelby, I’d love to get into just a little bit of your background so people know that you’re speaking from a place of authority. Also want to just acknowledge right out of the gate that you’re one of our gold sponsors for the summit here just a couple of months away. Super excited to have you joining us. This fills such an important need that we hear from other advisors. That’s how we look for partners that we spend time on the podcast with, we spend time in person with, of what are the questions we’re hearing from people regularly that we want to make sure we have great resources on and this is certainly one of those topics. So give us a little bit of background about you and about Muriel Consulting.

Shelby Nicholl (02:04)
Sure, thank you so much. Well, I’ll first of all say that I came to this industry, I think when I was right out of college, I started at the old A.G. Edwards way, way, way back in the day, spent a couple of years there, came up marketing and client experience, spent some time at Edward Jones at their home office for about 10 years. And then I was a senior vice president at LPL. And when I exited corporate, I really didn’t know, Steven, exactly what I was gonna do next. I stood up a digital community for women in wealth management. I stood up a podcast. And then I said, OK, now how am I, what’s my consulting practice going to be? And I had advisors calling me from my network and saying, know you, trust you. I’m going to move my practice. You’ve been a student of the industry forever. Where do you think I should take it? And so that led very organically to the practice that I have now, which is Muriel Consulting.

(02:56)
Muriel is named, by the way, after the first female member of the New York Stock Exchange. It was her and 1800 and something guys. And she broke away to start her own firm and then eventually to get her own seat because she wanted to get paid more. She wanted to get paid the same as the guys. And so she was a breakaway and a trailblazer. And it’s a lot of fun.

Steven Jarvis, CPA (03:16)
That’s awesome. Thanks for sharing that background. I always love letting people know kind of the place that this expertise comes from and and the reason this is relevant to a tax podcast is because as I talk about tax planning as a CPA who can represent people in front of the IRS and I mean obviously I have some professional and ethical obligations about how I give tax advice but nobody questions whether I can be involved in tax planning. So I get this question all the time from advisors of hey Steven that stuff you talked about sounds great, but I don’t want to get in trouble with compliance. Now, from my perspective, I am really encouraged by how much progress even some of the big firms are making in allowing some advisors to be more proactive with some of these things. Actually, just a couple of weeks ago, I was doing a workshop with a group of Edward Jones advisors. They had regional leaders in the room, excited I was there talking about taxes, but it does still look different what you can do on a tax topic on a lot of topics, if you are a solo RIA versus are you at a wirehouse with Merrill Lynch or something in between. So that’s really the conversation I want to have today to answer all of these questions that get asked and some that go unasked of as an advisor, how do I think about the situation I find myself in and how do I evaluate whether it’s time to say, you know what, I’m all in on what I’m doing or is it time to make a move? And Shelby, that’s one of the reasons I was really excited to have this conversation with you, is because you’re not out there advocating that everyone needs to end up in this one situation. This is the answer for everyone. I love the advocacy of, you should probably understand your situation and what makes sense, but then it’s really about finding the right fit for the right person.

Shelby Nicholl (04:54)
Yeah, it definitely is. And there is no single place that everyone should be, or we’d only have one firm, right? Or we would see all advisors swinging to a single firm. And that’s not what we have happen. Each firm has its unique value proposition, its unique way of doing its operations and businesses behind the scenes, and its own unique culture. One of the things that you just hit on was the tax side of it, right? And that is one of the key reasons that I see people moving to the RIA model is because they want to do more with taxes and they want to have a bit more freedom there. It’s not the only way that you can do more with taxes, but it is one way that you can. And tax planning and integrating tax services is a huge trend in the industry. Almost probably 75 % of the advisors that I’m working with are asking questions around what can I do related to taxes when they are interviewing new firms to go to. They’re also looking for software solutions like HolistaPlan and making sure that they can integrate tax advice as much as possible. When it comes to deciding if you should make a move, it’s a huge decision. This is a decision that’s going to impact you as the advisor. It’s going to impact the advisor’s family, it’s going to impact every client that they have as well, and it’s going to impact their own personal colleague relationships too. So it’s not anything that an advisor will take lightly. There’s a ton of due diligence and you should. My best advice is please don’t just do what the buddy down the street did. Just because it was right for him or her or somebody that you know in your network doesn’t mean it’s the right fit for you.

Steven Jarvis, CPA (06:33)
Well, Shelby, I love that preface because I talk about the same thing all the time when it comes to tax planning. It seems like regardless of the topic, everybody’s got that friend or uncle. It does seem to be uncles, not aunts. I don’t know what that tells us, but they’ve got that person in their life who paints this picture of something they did as if everyone should do it. And it was super easy and I made way more money or I saved lots on taxes. And so we really do please learn from other people, but we got to make sure that things apply to our situation before we dive in with both feet.

Shelby Nicholl (06:59)
Yeah, we have to take agency over our life. And it’s our family life. And we need to run it like a fiduciary of our own lives. And that doesn’t always mean just kind of blindly going into the next decision. It means saying, what’s important to me today? What do I want my practice to look like in five years? Who is the right best partner that meets those actual criteria and which might also include the financial elements as well?

Steven Jarvis, CPA (07:24)
So Shelby, I of course am the resident tax nerd, probably one of the most well-known tax nerds in the industry. There’s only a handful that come to mind. So hopefully it doesn’t surprise listeners of this show because I say this all the time, but we have to make good life decisions and then figure out the tax efficient way to go about them, which also applies to, as we talk about the situation a financial advisor ultimately lands up in. While there’s part of me that would love to say, hey, just make this decision based on where you can do the most on taxes, that is not the right answer. There’s a whole list of things that advisors should be thinking about. And taxes might be one of those things, both how we can help clients with taxes and how our personal taxes are affected by our employment or ownership situation. When you work with an advisor who says, hey, I’m thinking about this topic, what types of things do you encourage them to think about?

Shelby Nicholl (08:12)
Yeah, the first thing we always do is start with kind of a vision casting discussion. What do you want your practice to be in the future? What are the things that we’re running from? What are the things that are making you unhappy today? Or where you just wish you could do more. Maybe that’s tax planning and tax advice. And then we are also looking at what are we are turning those, I guess is the right way to say it. We’re turning that vision into a set of requirements. You know, people will talk about technology, right? And it’s like, what were the requirements of the iPhone when they created it, right? And you talk about in corporate land, the requirements of a system to do something. That’s the approach I use with my clients. So we talk about the requirements of the future place in three buckets, functional requirements, financial requirements, and the personality requirements. Functional is, what are the things that you need in order to run a thriving practice? How are you doing your advisory business today? How are you doing the investing business? Do you have annuities and insurance in your practice or not? What are kind of those product things? Do you want to be able to do tax advice? What is the tech that you’re using for planning today? And what is the tech you really want to be using that you’ve heard about that you’ve been maybe not able to use yet? Is it an AI solution for note taking? Is there a certification that isn’t recognized by your particular firm?

(09:31)
So those are kind of functional requirements. That’s the first bucket. Second bucket is financial. Do you need upfront money or not? Because sometimes we need to bridge, and it’s perfectly appropriate that we might need to bridge from one employer to the next broker dealer or one payout structure to the next payout structure. That’s an OK thing. Do you need or want a certain amount of ongoing expense management? Do you want them to pay your payroll? What’s going to happen when it comes time to push the button on payroll? We talk about all those financial elements of running a practice. We also talk about the background of the firms that you might be considering. Is PE backed firms? Are those off the table or not? And then the final bucket is personality fit. And this is like really where the magic is. Who do you want to learn from? And who do you want to instill your wisdom upon? If you really want to be at a point where you’re instilling wisdom on others well, then let’s look for a firm where you can put those skills to work. If you really want to be learning from others that are, say, twice as big or have done X, Y, Z thing in the past, then let’s find a firm that does that. If you have really strongly held religious beliefs or political beliefs, let’s get those out on the table because let’s find you a home where you feel at home. So we look in those three categories.

Steven Jarvis, CPA (10:46)
Yeah, love your approach to this because in all of that description, I mean, at least the way I was hearing that, and I’ve got some inside knowledge about the session you’re gonna do at the summit for us, so maybe I have a little bit better perspective than listeners who are new to you of kind of how you think about these things, but as you go through those buckets, there isn’t a single outcome of what that has to look like, and so the title of the session you’re gonna do is this stay, go, or grow idea that we can go through. This can be a beneficial exercise even if it ends with, you know what, I do wanna stay where I am and maybe here’s some things I’m gonna advocate for or some things I need to adjust, but hey, I’ve gone through the assessment and you know what, I am really happy with the balance of where I’m at, which again, why I having these conversations and why we’re super meticulous about who we invite on the podcast or to our summit, because we want to make sure that we’re doing things that are specific. We’re doing things that ultimately accomplish those long-term goals. Whether we’re talking about clients or advisors, what is that long-term goal and have we set ourselves up to give ourselves the best chance of success?

Commercial (11:46)
retirementtaxservices.com/summit

Shelby Nicholl (12:351)
Yeah, I think it’s really important. And again, our answers, my answers would be different than your answers. So we need to go through the process in a really methodical and thoughtful way. And you’re right, sometimes we decide to just stay where we are or life events happen and now we have to stay where we are for whatever reason. And that’s okay. What’s really important though is I think for every advisor, for them to be the proactive CEO of their practice. And that means every now and again, picking your head up from the grindstone, right? Pick that head up and look around a little bit and go, okay, do I have all the tool set that I need in order to serve my clients fully? Do I have the tool set that I can deliver what I want to my clients? And do I have the tool set I need to serve my family well too?

Steven Jarvis, CPA (12:56.302)
Yeah, Shelby, I love the way you’re describing that because even if we, I mean, since this is my area of focus, if we narrow in on tax planning for a second, I’ve had conversations with advisors who say, Steven, I would love to do the things you talk about, but I can’t. Compliance won’t let me. I can’t give tax advice. I’ll say, OK, let’s talk about that a little bit. What is it you would actually like to be able to do? Do you want to prepare tax returns? No, I don’t want to prepare tax returns. Do you want to have somebody on staff who prepares tax returns? No, I don’t really want to do that. And then as we kind of pull back the layers, really what they’d like to be able to do is get tax returns from clients and be able to talk more freely about the tax topic, but really in a pretty contained way. And so usually when we go through that, I say, hey, when was the last time you talked to compliance about what it is you’d actually like to do? And then usually there’s some hemming and hawing before we get to, I’ve never actually had that conversation with compliance. And so then I just, hey, let’s work together on what that conversation looks like because…I’ve actually had conversations with compliance departments of some of the bigger broker dealers and most of them are actually a lot more reasonable and helpful and more of a team player than some advisors expect. It’s just that they’ve never actually even had the conversation.

Shelby Nicholl (14:26)
I know they can get too scared, right? And really, it’s almost like healthcare. When you go into a meeting with your physician, somebody has to be there advocating for your behalf. It’s either gonna be you or it’s gonna be a family member. You gotta approach compliance in the same way. You need to go in and advocate for what you want, see if you can get it. Because maybe everything else about that firm is perfect and this is the only element that we need to shore up. Well, let’s get the element shored up. If on the other hand you go through and you say, gosh, you know what, there’s 10 things with this firm that I’m just feeling hamstrung on. I can’t do AI. I can’t have an AI note taker. I can’t use social media to the degree that I want. I can’t do a podcast. And that’s really important to me because I worked for a radio station when I was in college, right? Whatever it is. If there’s a whole list of those things and tax is on there too, and other tech is on there too, it’s time to look around. It’s the only thing time to go in and advocate for yourself. Position it from your client’s perspective and and try to get that changed.

Steven Jarvis, CPA (15:27)
Yeah, completely agree. Shelby, for advisors listening, mean this isn’t something you can’t wake up every day and say, I’m gonna reevaluate my whole life today again. I so what are kind of those red or yellow flags where you say, hey, advisors, if these things, if you have these types of emotions or thoughts or experiences, these are the things that say, it’s time to do this evaluation or redo this evaluation if it’s been a while since we’ve thought about it.

Shelby Nicholl (15:51)
Yeah, I have a document and I know we’re going to link it in the show notes called the fit test. And you know, one of the things it is is really a powerful self assessment. It is a tool for that is designed for advisors who are kind of on the fence and wondering if they’re at the right firm, but not entirely sure, a guided questionnaire. You do it on your own. You know, call me afterwards if you want or talk it over with a friend or a colleague. But a few things that always come to my mind that if that would say, hey, it’s it’s time to look around is is a few things. One, financials, they are important. What you are making, how the financials are calculated, that is an important element. You’re taking care of your family. It’s not just about you. You’re not being selfish there. It’s important to take a look at the numbers. How much are you paying for the privilege of being affiliated with the firm that you are associated with? And then say, is that amount the right value for me? Am I getting that much value out of that firm?

(16:48)
Another important piece is going to be around clients. We always want to start with the clients and talk about, we able to serve our clients in the manner that you desire and in the way that our clients want to? If you’re hearing from clients, gosh, you know, I think you have, if for example, a client inherits a large sum of money and then moves their account away from you, there’s something that is missing about your service offering. Find out what that is, and then let’s add that to our list of things to look for. And then also talk about your team. Is your team well served by the current platform? There’s always gonna be a backend behind you, whether it’s a custodian or it’s a broker dealer or whatever. Is your team well served by them? Are they having to do a bunch of things manually? Is the account opening process still feeling outdated, et cetera? Ask your team if they’re happy working with the firm, because that should be an indicator to you too.

Steven Jarvis, CPA (17:36)
Well, Shelby, I certainly really appreciate that you’re offering that fit test to everyone listening. You can go to retirementtaxservices.com/shelby to download that for free. And Shelby has generously offered to get on a call to go over that together with you. So again, retirementtaxservices.com/shelby, which, you know, there’s so many areas of life where that’s so important to be able to be honest and open with ourselves. And it’s not, again, it’s not that every time we’re gonna say, man, time for a dramatic change. Sometimes this can be a really reinforcing exercise of, you know what, are doing right by clients and I am getting the financial results that allow me to accomplish the goals I want with my family. But if we’re never kind of pulling back the curtain to say, hey, what’s going on, we’re really, doing ourselves, our family, our clients a disservice. So we’ve got to have those times where we take a step back and say, okay, how do I really feel about what’s going on?

Shelby Nicholl (18:22)
Yeah, you know, what is it they say you should replace your mattress like every eight years or something? Which sounds kind of crazy, right? But how many times have we just sort of gone about our life and whatever decision it is, and then we’re like, wow, that was 20 years, that was 10 years. And what I find is that a lot of times we’re sort of set with some blinders about, we talk to other people who have practices like ours, we talk to other people who are still with the same firm and grew up in the same way that we did. And so anytime that you can get out to a conference or to listen to podcasts like this one and get another external perspective, it just helps broaden your viewpoint and helps you say, am I being the proactive CEO for myself, my family and my clients? The other thing I would also say is that going through a true due diligence process is a lot of work. And it definitely doesn’t have to be me, but my biggest advice would be go find an independent consultant. Don’t just talk to the recruiters or the consultants that work for the firms and for the platforms and for the custodians. Really go out and find somebody who is a third party that can give you a bit more of an objective viewpoint.

Steven Jarvis, CPA (19:30)
Yeah, love that recommendation. There’s so much value in having somebody else look at this. This is why our friends at tHE Perfect RIA run masterminds so that we can get outside perspective. Somebody who can kind of call us on our BS. Because Shelby, one of the things that you said in there that really stood out to me that goes so far beyond just the conversation we’re currently having is you really need to look for areas in your life where you’re saying, can’t. And this is definitely true on tax plan here from advisors all the time. Steve, that sounds nice, but I can’t because of what I fill in the blank, whether that’s compliance or my knowledge set or the resources I have or the software I have access to. If you have areas in your life where you’re regularly saying, can’t, it’s time to step back and reevaluate. Because we need to figure out, are you saying I can’t because there’s a limitation imposed by someone else? In which case, hey, go through this fit test. Make sure you’re really thinking about the structure you’re in. Shelby, I mean, what I see quite often is that really, We say I can’t to give ourselves an excuse and really what we’re saying is I’m not. I’m not taking the time to learn these things. I’m not taking the time to implement these resources. And maybe that’s okay. We don’t have to be all things to all people all the time. But let’s at least be intentional about it. Let’s be honest with ourselves. Again, be really be on the lookout for those areas in your life where you’re saying I can’t because let’s do something about it. We live in a free country with a lot of opportunities. I can’t is usually an excuse.

Shelby Nicholl (20:50)
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. It’s time to take agency over that life and over your client experience. You are an expert for your clients and for yourself, so own that. You know, I feel like sometimes also people get very intimidated by the amount of work and what it takes to learn the full spectrum of options. You know, if you don’t want to go down every single path, but you want an occasional sort of second opinion, give me a call. Let’s have a conversation and I can talk you through at least the range of options that are out there because there are so many. You can go captive broker dealer and continue with the W2 path. You can own your own practice and still be a W2. You can go support at Independence and you can stand up your own RIA. There’s so many options these days. It can become overwhelming and that overwhelm can create inertia also. So just like the saying, can’t do that and that sort of living with it.

That’s inertia. Another reason people have inertia is because it just feels overwhelming. So make it less overwhelming. Let’s take some action and own your life.

Steven Jarvis, CPA (21:53)
Yeah, starting this conversation, I think we get this far into kind of the soft side of this, but I think it’s really important to acknowledge some of these things, that it is really hard to make changes. Let’s just be totally honest. Like human creatures, we are desperate for comfort, and when we get comfortable with what we’re doing, it’s really hard to change. And so even if you are miserable, even if like, objectively there are things going on that you just wish you didn’t have to deal with, it’s still always gonna be easier to not do something different because we’ve created coping mechanisms to deal with what we currently have in front of us. But the only way that gets better is if we can have that honest conversation with ourselves of, when I say I can’t, I’m making an excuse, and it’s time to take accountability. And that could be simple things like doing an extra course to learn a new skill. Maybe it is something more dramatic like going through and figuring out how to move and be in a completely new situation. But anytime we’re saying I can’t, like, hey, that really should be a red flag that this is time to get outside of my comfort zone.

Shelby Nicholl (22:533)
Yeah, absolutely. And you know what? We can and we will, and you’ll do it with support, which will make it easier. And yeah, by the way, everybody talks about how hard a transition is. Transitions are work. And if you’re in a non-solicit kind of contract, transitions are going to be extra amount of work if you’re in that non-protocol environment. And that’s the way it is. But I’ll also tell you, nobody usually looks back and says, gosh, I wish I had never done that. Haven’t heard that yet.

Steven Jarvis, CPA (23:20)
That’s a really good point, Shelby. Yeah, and I think that’s one of reasons we get along because when I talk to advisors about tax planning, that is a constant refrain of mine of, tax planning is work. It turns out most of the best things in life are work. And it turns out most of the things that will set us apart and lead us to a level of success that the average person doesn’t get is hard work. Because if it wasn’t hard work, everyone would do it and we wouldn’t be having this conversation. So yes, look for those things that require hard work. That probably means you’re going in the right direction. I do really appreciate, the comment in there about, talk to other people who have done this, learn from other people’s successes and mistakes. Both as part of the reason we put on the summit every year and we make sure that we’re filling the room. This year there’ll be over 250 advisors there to learn from other people what other people have gone through. This is such a great way to really get some firsthand insight, because I can get on here and talk about tax planning all day, but I still, I’m not a financial advisor. That’s why I put financial advisors in a room so that you can learn from other people who are doing this stuff day in and day out.

Shelby Nicholl (24:21)
Well, as a first time attendee at the summit, what advice do you have for me?

Steven Jarvis, CPA (24:254)
That’s a great question. So the first thing that always comes to mind when people ask that is anytime you go to a conference, mine or somebody else’s, come with a question or a couple of questions, like the burning things at the top of your list that, this would change the trajectory of my firm, of my life, of my family if I could answer these couple of questions. And then ask every single person you come across at the conference those same questions. A lot of us have the default to ask people what their summer vacation was or how their favorite sports team is doing.

(24:54)
That is a waste of your time at a conference. I’m not against human connections, but start with that thing that’s keeping you up at night, that’s slowing your team down. Even if it’s as simple as asking every attendee you come across, hey, how did you communicate Roth conversions this last year? And then learn from what other people are doing. It might be a way to your topic of, as you talk to other attendees, you’re looking for, I’m thinking about leaving the broker dealer I’m part of, can you tell me about your experience? And one of the things I love about how we’ve organized the summit and the way we structure it is that all of the speakers, all of the presenters, definitely the hosts that are there with me, we know lots of people there. And so if you’re not sure who to ask about who’s made a transition, come ask us, we’ll tell you, we’ll introduce you to somebody who’s been through exactly what you’re going through.

Shelby Nicholl (25:38)
Yeah, one of the questions I always tell people to ask is, what is a change in your business that you made that has led to a new level of success? It’s such a good question. You’ll learn so much and it gets to something deep in the heart. And sometimes you’re gonna hear about transitions. Other times you’re gonna hear about a client experience or an operational change, but you’re gonna learn something every single time.

Steven Jarvis, CPA (26:02)
Absolutely. Yeah, I love that question. What’s a change you’ve made in your business that’s led to a new level of success? That’s super insightful because you’re not tying to any specific outcome just, hey, what was a new level of success for you? This is one of the other things I really love about our conference. We do have a really good range of advisors in the room. Almost guaranteed you’re gonna find people that you can share successes with and that you can learn from as well. So it’s gonna be an incredible event. As we’re recording this, are still seats available, so you can go to retirementtechservices.com/summit to get signed up to fill one those last few seats. While you’re out there, again, if you go to retirementtechservices.com/shelby, you can get your free copy of the fit test and book a call with Shelby to talk about the situation you find yourself in and what questions you have. So, Shelby, before we wrap up here, anything else that people should know about learning what you’re doing or just kind of as we wrap up this conversation on this topic?

Shelby Nicholl (26:55)
Well, I guess one last thing I would say is maybe it’s actually two things, because I just can’t help myself. So number one, I will tell you I have innate FOMO as a person. And I am so excited to attend the summit because I have such FOMO. And I keep seeing all these conferences online that everybody’s at, and I’m not there. So I’m super excited about that. The other reason I bring up FOMO is that it drives me in how I work with the advisors that I work with. I am almost always sourcing a new firm for every advisor that I’m working for. And that just means that I’m learning something new about a firm. It means also that next week the firms that I can talk to you about might be a little bit different than the ones I can talk about this week. And I can get more and more pinpointed as to the right firms for each individual situation.

(27:41)
The second thing I really want to mention about Muriel Consulting is one of the ways that we are different from some of the other recruiting firms out there is as we like to say that we don’t just take you to the door, we’re going to walk you all the way through it. And a lot of recruiters will just sort of like drop you at the introduction and maybe help you through the deal making. We’re gonna walk with you all the way through the successful launch. So if you do make a move, we really wanna make sure that that’s a successful move for you. If there’s things that aren’t being handled by the broker dealer or the platform that you’re joining, we’re gonna be able to spot those, help you fill in those blanks, connect you to all the partners that you need in order to have a successful launch. And that’s really the secret sauce of us.

Steven Jarvis, CPA (28:21)
Shelby, I love that so much. And we’ll kind of wrap up on that theme because it ties into what I talk about so often on the tax planning side that, you know, the correlation there is it’s not just about the introduction on the tax plan side. It’s not just about the idea. It’s about the execution, the implementation, the report. Like we’ve got to see this all the way through to the end. And so the comment I always make on the tax planning side is that until it gets reported to the IRS correctly, it doesn’t count, which is why I’m constantly telling advisors you need to get every tax return every single year, you’ve got to make sure this stuff is getting done correctly. So I love that commitment to not just getting you to the door, but through the door. Shelby, thank you so much for joining on the podcast. Can’t wait to see you at the summit. It’s going to be a great time.

Shelby Nicholl (28:53)
Can’t wait, looking forward to it.

Steven Jarvis, CPA (29:00)
And to everyone listening, thanks for being here and until next time, good luck out there and remember to tip your server, not the IRS.