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We’re not overpaying. No, we’re not overpaying. We’re not overpaying anymore. The tax code’s complicated, boring, and overrated. You don’t want that, you want a pro. One thing that you should know: this is a radio show. It’s not tax advice, don’t take it that way.

Steven Jarvis:     Hello everyone, and welcome to the next episode of The Retirement Tax Services Podcast, Financial Professionals’ Edition. I am your host, Steven Jarvis, CPA. And in this show, I teach financial advisors how to deliver massive value to their clients through tax planning.

I have an incredible guest with me today. I actually just had the opportunity to let her know that she is on the Investopedia Top 100 Advisor list. She is on LinkedIn and YouTube as the 401klady. And we are going to have a lot of fun today talking about 401(k) and all things Roth. So, Jeanne Sutton, welcome to the show.

Jeanne Sutton:    Thank you, Steven, for having me, and thanks for letting me know the good news.

Steven Jarvis:     Yeah, congratulations. That’s an awesome accomplishment for you to be on that list.

Jeanne Sutton:    Thank you, my first time. So, I’ll take it.

Steven Jarvis:     Yeah, that’s awesome. So, Jeanne, the reason that you and I got connected and that we went ahead and did this podcast together, it was because of an article that we both saw and had a similar reaction to.

We won’t mention any names, you can probably still go find the article; but it was an article by a financial advisor that essentially said Roth is pretty much always a bad idea. And I think you and I both read it kind of looking for the okay, but where’s the, “But wait, it turns out it actually is a really good idea” and it never came.

So, the whole article was, hey, Roth’s a terrible idea. So, we wanted to get together, we’ll leave the article behind, but talk about specifically your focus on 401(k)s as the 401klady and then some elements of Roth underneath that.

So, right at the gate, Jeanne, talk a little bit about how you arrived at being the 401klady, and then let’s dive into some key takeaways from all the things that you do.

Jeanne Sutton:    Yeah, absolutely. So, I’m a certified financial planner by trade and certification. So, I did personal advising for about a decade, stumbled on a few 401(k)s, realized that was truly my passion and what I enjoyed doing.

And so, now, my practice is primarily institutional with my partner. I have a partner and we’re a part of a much larger network of advisors that just specialize in consulting on retirement plans.

So, we came into the industry with the perspective of individual financial planning, but now, work at it from a much more institutional level. So, we get kind of the behind the scenes, technical, 401(k), experience, but always with the participant front of mind.

Steven Jarvis:     That’s a really interesting background to be able to come from both sides of that. As we were getting ready for the show, I was mentioning to you that one of the reasons I was excited to talk about 401(k)s, is that I feel like it’s one of these topics where since it’s so prevalent from like a headline standpoint — I mean, if you pulled the country, most people would know that a 401(k) exists.

And so, it can feel like this simple thing that, well, I’ve got that down, I’ve got it all covered. I don’t need to find someone who specializes in this to teach me about 401(k)s, I know how that works.

But certainly, my experience, and I know your experience has proven otherwise. So, what are some of those kind of top things that you are constantly having to educate people on, so they’re really taking advantage of their 401(k)?

Jeanne Sutton:    So, I think the first one is just how your contribution into the 401(k) is actually calculated. Since most plans and most participants elect a deferral percentage, I’m not sure that the average advisor or investor really understands how that slides through the payroll process.

So, the first thing we want everybody to know is if you are electing to save a percentage, whether you choose pre-tax or Roth, that percentage is always going to be calculated on your gross income.

So, if for some reason that 6% calculation comes out to $200, whether you are saving pre-tax or Roth, $200 is going into the 401(k). The actual tax adjustment happens on the withholdings on the paycheck.

And I think a lot of advisors think that if their clients pick Roth, the contribution into the plan will be lower. And that’s really not the case. The tax affects the withholdings, not the contribution.

Steven Jarvis:     Yeah. So, really there’s two different pieces to it. There’s how much does this affect my client’s monthly cash flow? How much does this affect their take home paycheck? And then what are they doing to actually maximize their savings?

You’re going to elect that percentage on the gross amount — we’re going to have a different outcome as far as how much gets withheld from your paycheck. And that can be surprising to people if they’re not familiar with how that works.

But maybe even more importantly, it changes what we’re long-term building towards, whether we’re saving Roth or traditional, just from how much we can get in there, because the contribution limits aren’t different.

And I won’t steal your thunder, but I loved one of the things that you said as we were getting ready, as far as your response to people who want to max out their 401(k) plan, this is my new favorite quote.

Jeanne Sutton:    So, we hear all the time, especially from high-income earns like, “I want to max out, I want to save the absolute most I can into my 401(k).” And my response is the only way you can truly max out your 401(k) is to do a Roth. Otherwise, you’re just contributing 20,000 with an IOU involved. There’s a portion of it that doesn’t belong to you. So, if you truly want to max out, the only way to do that is with a Roth.

Steven Jarvis:     Yeah. And maybe I’m sure all of my listeners are way ahead of me on this, but that was just this kind of like mind-blowing, little moment to me of what a great, simple way to phrase this, because we see these almost debates about traditional versus Roth IRA, and we won’t really dive into that on this podcast.

But since the contribution limits are the same, the IRS doesn’t adjust the contribution limits if it’s Roth or traditional. The only way you’re truly putting the maximum in is if you do Roth, whether it’s inside of the 401(k) or outside of 401(k). Otherwise, you’re letting the IRS stay as your unwitting business partner until you use that money.

So, yeah, if you really want to max contribute to a retirement account, it has to be Roth. I love that way of thinking about it.

Jeanne Sutton:    I think there’s like a behavioral finance component too, because even if it’s not at a max out, even if you’re talking to someone and they say, “I want to save $200 in my retirement account.” Okay, if you really want to save $200, then you need to save $200 Roth. If you’re wanting to save $200 pre-tax, then you need to save 250, it’s like resetting that bar.

Steven Jarvis:     Yeah, of helping the clients understand how much of that money is actually theirs. Because the number of taxpayers I talk to who will talk about how, “Oh, I have a million dollars in my 401(k) account.” Which first of all, great job saving, that’s not a small accomplishment.

But in their minds, they think tomorrow, if I had to, I could withdraw a million dollars and it’s like, absolutely, you cannot. The IRS is only so patient and they’re going to be standing there waiting for their 20, their 22, their whatever percentage it’s going to be at that time, not to mention the state side of it. So, if it’s in a traditional IRA, traditional 401(k), that balance that you’re seeing isn’t really your money.

Jeanne Sutton:    Yep. Well, and honestly, before we get too far, probably one of the most basic — I’m not going to say from advisors, but from just everyday investors, there’s this huge portion of the population that turns off the Roth conversation because they think they’re not eligible.

And like we constantly have to remind people, there is an income limitation on the Roth IRA. There is no income limitation on the Roth 401(k). There is nobody in this country that makes too much money to contribute to a Roth 401(k).

Steven Jarvis:     It’s such a great reminder. And at times, it’s becoming more common. Thankfully, it’s becoming more common, but sometimes, we even have to take a step back and just make sure people understand that there is a Roth option available in their 401(k). That hasn’t always been the case, but that absolutely is an option.

For a lot of people, especially if you’re looking at people younger in their careers or I in a place where a Roth option is a newer option available to them, they don’t even know what that concept is. As advisors, we talk about this all the time, but sometimes, you got to start with, “Hey, let’s just talk about what these two different options are and what they mean for you.” And of course, we’d love everything to be simpler.

So, as you’re educating people on what that Roth side of it means for them, what are some other things that go into that education for the client?

Jeanne Sutton:    So, what we tend to really focus on is time to withdrawal. Notice, I did not say time to retirement — time to withdrawal. For a long time, our industry has focused on tax rates; what’s your tax rate today, and what’s your projected tax rate to be?

Well, we all know as financial professionals, there is another variable in that equation, and that is the taxable base. When we’re calculating taxes owed, we take the rate times the base.

So, we try to emphasize over and over again, that the true value of the Roth is the tax-free growth, the account doubling every seven years, the compound interest that we preach over and over and over again, the value of saving early can all be applied to the value of the Roth.

So, when we’re doing, should you do Roth versus pre-tax education, we’re spending a lot of time on how old the participant is and how long it’s going to be before they actually take distributions from the account.

And we are very comfortable, even for high-income individuals saying, if you are under the age of 40, most likely, you are better off doing the Roth because you have 30 plus years of tax-free growth available to you. So, that’s what we focus on, is time to withdrawal.

Steven Jarvis:     Yeah. You mentioned before that some of this is almost just behavioral psychology to it because, if we take a step back and assume that we have adjusted for taxes, that pre-tax, we put $20,000 in and after tax, we put $15,000 in, then we can get out all these illustrations of, well, if the tax rates don’t change, then it doesn’t really matter, you end up in the same place.

But we started with, especially in a 401(k), we’re most likely not going to start in the same place. It’s not this textbook example of, well, if I have $20,000 of pre-tax or $15,000 of after-tax — no, no, no. I can start with, well, what if I had $20,000 of a tax-free bucket?

So, yeah, absolutely, let’s fill off that tax-free bucket. Let’s let it grow as long as we can. There’s so many potential advantages there.

Jeanne Sutton:    It’s absolutely apparent, especially in a retirement plan where you’re electing a deferral and then choosing how you want it taxed. People do not adjust their contribution. It’s not like they think, “Oh, I’m going to get a tax deduction, so I can save more.” They don’t do that.

But I will go so far as to say, even when I was truly in the personal financial planning world, and I was talking to somebody about saving and they said, “I want to save $3,000 into my IRA.” None of them ever came back to my office and said, “Oh, by the way, I got this $300 tax break, and now, I want to invest that.” Nobody actually does that. Nobody actually reinvests the tax savings.

So, this super analytical — I think Michael Kitces even wrote a big article about it, like, okay, mathematically, sure. But we’re totally ignoring behavioral finance. I would love to see the person that walks back to their advisor and says, “I noticed I got this deduction, now, I’d like to reinvest it.” No.

Steven Jarvis:     I’m 100% with you. The other one that always comes to mind with that is the number of advisors who will do something with their client and then say, “But you should go talk to your CPA about it.”

And I think some of them honestly believe that the client goes and talks to their CPA. They don’t. Like just public service announcement here; I talk to a lot of CPAs, no one is coming to a CPA and saying, “My financial advisor told me I should run this strategy by you.”

You might feel a little bit better that you said that to a client, but it’s not actually accomplishing anything. Similar to, “Oh, we can run all the mathematical models on what if you invested the difference. And what about capital gains rates versus traditional IRA? Is that ordinary?”

No, set all that aside. What are people actually going to do in practice and how can we truly maximize what people are saving for retirement?

The other reminder, I always like to throw out when we talk about Roth 401(k)s is that if I’m the employee and I’m contributing Roth to my 401(k) and my employer provides a match or a profit share, the employer is also putting into my account, those are not Roth dollars.

And this gets missed all the time and people get surprised by it. Jeanne, I’d love to hear your thoughts on kind of how this plays out in practice. But I’d just like to throw out that reminder of the employer side is not Roth dollars. The employer wants their tax deduction.

So, even if you’re contributing Roth, if there’s a match or profit share, you have pre-tax dollars in there as well.

Jeanne Sutton:    Yeah, you’re right. And the questions we get on the front lines is, “Well, what’s it invested in, is it a different account?” And we’re constantly having to educate too. It’s just a line-item classification on your same statement. You will see employee Roth contribution and then employer contribution.

And so, we do have to coach that they’re two different things. But not to blow anybody’s minds, surely some of the advisors have been reading secure 2.0, which does actually call for Roth employer contributions. And for the record, also calls for Roth simples and Roth steps.

So, even though we’re talking about this in the context of a Roth 401(k) or Roth IRA, I can assure you in the near future, Roth will be potentially into the match portion and into several other types of retirement accounts.

Steven Jarvis:     Which as far as I’m concerned is great news. Roth is such a powerful tool for people who are saving for the long-term. I’d love to see it continue expand.

Jeanne, it’s really easy to talk about this kind of bifurcation of, is it traditional or is it Roth, but really, it’s not even that simple because we have a third bucket that sometimes gets forgotten about which causes huge problems. Because if it gets forgotten about, we can end up in situations where we’re paying tax twice, which has to be the worst way to tip the IRS. So, what’s this third bucket that we’ve got to keep in mind?

Jeanne Sutton:    Well, not to be confusing at all. It’s actually called after-tax. So, it’s the third bucket. It is not tax like the Roth or the pre-tax. It is its own bucket where the employer contribution is treated like a Roth, but the tax, the growth, is actually tax-deferred like a pre-tax. So, you don’t get the tax deduction for what you put into the after-tax bucket and the growth is not tax-free like it would be on the Roth.

In real life, in strategy, here’s where you would see it play out. You have a super high income earning client who’s maxing out, let’s say, Roth or pre-tax. It doesn’t matter. They’re getting their full employer match and they still want to save more. There’s still room in the 401(k) if their plan allows for it to contribute to this after-tax bucket.

But as an advisor, what you’re trying to encourage them to do is every year, convert inside the plan, the after tax to Roth, which is effectively stopping the taxation on the growth.

So, it’s a great way to put money in and above the limits. If you really want to maximize it, you need to be converting it every year.

Steven Jarvis:     We definitely got to check the specific plan options for this because it’s not universal that every plan allows it, either for those after-tax contributions or for the in-plan conversions, because we can actually do the same thing with that employer contribution that doesn’t go in as Roth. We can be converting those every year.

But we got to make sure the plan allows it. This is similar to doing like backdoor Roth contributions outside of a 401(k) plan that we get to a point where we’re making contributions to an IRA, but not getting the tax benefit up front.

And so, the record keeping and strategy around that needs to be really intentional, so we don’t inadvertently end up in a situation where we’ve missed out on where the benefit really is.

Jeanne Sutton:    Yeah, absolutely. And I’ve seen advisors confuse, because sometimes they call it the mega backdoor Roth strategy. And I’ve seen advisors confuse that with the Roth.

I’ve seen advisors coaching people through, “Okay, do this mega backdoor Roth strategy and this whole complicated step.” And I look at them and I’m like, “Okay, well, why don’t you just start off and do the Roth first, and then do this.” Like let’s get to high school before we go to college, okay.

So, the mega backdoor Roth is what we’re referencing when we talk about the after-tax account.

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Steven Jarvis:     To your point earlier, inside the 401(k) plan, we don’t have these same income limitations on contributing to Roth. And so, that’s interesting that you see that in practice, that the people go straight to let’s try to contribute after tax and not even fill up that Roth portion first.

Jeanne Sutton:    There’s so many just average investors who have turned off their brains as soon as Roth is mentioned, because they just think, “Oh, I can’t do that.” They’ve been told at some point by their account, they can’t do a Roth IRA and they’re not realizing it’s different for the 401(k).

Steven Jarvis:     Yeah. So, many great reminders in there of just making sure we’re asking the right questions of our clients, making sure we’re understanding the benefits that are available to them, and that there’s an intentionality to it.

For a lot of, especially W2 employees, it can easily become something that they thought about when they got hired wherever they were working and they don’t come back to and say, “Well, wait, were there better options available, are there other things I should be doing at this point in my life?”

And so, as an advisor, understanding what those options available to them are can potentially make a huge difference on how well they’re preparing for later in life for retirement.

Jeanne Sutton:    Yeah.

Steven Jarvis:     Jeanne, as you think about the most common things that you’re educating investors on, educating consumers on (and we’ve covered some great ones here), is there anything else that comes to mind, “I wish everyone would keep this in mind?”

Jeanne Sutton:    Yeah. Well, I have a couple, but I would say one of the things that I really wish maybe people understood is inside your retirement plan, most of them have target date funds now, where it’s like the year, like target date, 2015. And what I really want investors to know is that if you’re holding a target date fund, it’s meant to be one holding.

It’s not meant to be like you put half your account in a target date fund. And then you layer on other options from the sidebar option. You will inherently be out of tolerance. You will not be in the right asset allocation for your age if you do that.

So, either build yourself a model out of the sidecar investments or choose the target date fund, but don’t blend the two.

Steven Jarvis:     That’s really interesting, definitely something that gets missed a lot as far as what happens within that 401(k) plan and what that strategy looks like.

I’d be curious your experience with how financial advisors work with people who still have a 401(k) balance. I know there’s a lot of emphasis on, “Well, if I can manage all the assets, it’s easier to do all of the planning.” But where do you see kind of things go wrong with the 401(k) piece of someone’s investment strategy?

Jeanne Sutton:    Well, I think there’s going to be a lot of discussion around where is somebody better? Let’s just assume they’re terminated or they’re over the age 59 and they can actually roll their account out.

So, relative to rollovers, I see both sides. I have been a private wealth advisor, I’m a 401(k) consultant. So, there are times where they’re better off rolling out and there’s times where they’re not.

So, I think the advice I would give to advisors is particularly given some of the recent regulation, back in the day, you could assume most 401(k)s were bad and had hidden fees. That’s not the case today. 401(k)s are very efficient. That’s not to say there aren’t bad ones out there, but they’re very efficient.

So, we really do need to do an analysis on cost and benefit comparison. Not to say that just because a 401(k)’s cheaper, it should be better, I’m not saying that. We roll participants out too, but there needs to be a really in-depth analysis on that and not just assume all 401(k)s are bad.

If you determine that they should stay in the plan, or let’s say they’re in an active employee, and of course, can’t leave the plan. True advisors are taking into consideration the 401(k) in the overall wealth, they’re taking it in consideration when they’re doing the asset allocation.

And they’re logging in with the participant to not only create a model, most importantly; to rebalance the model, which most 401(k)s have the ability to build an auto re-bal. So, the advisor doesn’t have to do it moving forward.

And then secondly, people need to know that your rebalancing of your 401(k) allocation is often a separate step from determining how future contributions will go in.

So, it’s not like a typical advisor just rebalancing an IRA, you have to go into the 401(k), rebalance it. Then you need to set it up on auto re-bal. Then you need to go to the future contributions tab and align future contributions with the strategy you created.

So, good advisors are going to be logging in and helping their clients out and considering it in the whole pie.

Steven Jarvis:     That makes a lot of sense. One of the things that you said in there, makes me think about another topic that we talk about quite often on the podcast and other content we put out as far as separating the cream from the coffee when we talk about backdoor Roth contributions.

That one potential strategy that if you have, if you’re dealing with the IRS’s pro rata rule that you have after-tax basis and pre-tax basis is to get the pretax basis into an Erisa plan, into a 401(k) plan, do your conversion. And then a lot of times the kind of the conventional wisdom is then, okay, roll the 401(k) plan back out into whatever investment the advisor can manage.

But one of the things that we include as a reminder in there, and I’m glad you brought it up is that, as the advisor, you have to make sure that you are going through the steps to comply with the regulations that apply to a financial advisor, the suitability and different things like that.

That it’s not just as simple as, “Well, there’s more flexibility.” Like it’s not going to be just a simple, like buzzword that you can use. You really do have to evaluate what are the investment options? What are the fees look like? Could they potentially be better off inside that 401(k)?

And I certainly appreciate that you can come at this, even being the 401klady, that you can come at this and say, “There are situations where either option might be the right answer,” because there’s very few things that are universally true for everyone in all situations.

But it’s a really important reminder that if you’re looking, whether it’s a backdoor Roth contribution of separating the cream from the coffee, or just in general, helping your clients roll a 401(k) over, you’ve got to make sure you are doing and documenting your analysis on why it makes more sense for them to roll the 401(k) back out, aside from, well, that’s how I prefer to do things.

Jeanne Sutton:    Right. Yeah, I would be hard pressed to have somebody rolling money in a 401(k) to take it back out just to complete, a backdoor Roth.

Now, complete some conversions prior to distributing the 401(k), if you want to follow those steps. But I think too, there’s a ton of benefits to having your own Roth or your own IRA, and your audience knows that. But there’s unique benefits to being in a workplace plan.

One of the ones that I think is probably not represented enough is the ability to take a loan from your account. As I have aged in this industry, I have softened the most on loans.

There are times where loans absolutely make sense. And so, once you take somebody out of a workplace plan, assuming and most do, if they allowed for loans, you’ve now taken that option from them.

Steven Jarvis:     Yeah. It removes some flexibility. I’m guessing that you’re not recommending that someone sit down and build out a strategy with their client that says, “Hey, we’re going to intentionally and proactively … at this point in your life, here’s where we’re going to start using 401(k) loans. And here’s why we’re going to do it.”

But it’s an option that creates flexibility if it’s there. And it’s most likely going to be for something that we didn’t plan for that wasn’t expected, but in that moment, can be a huge advantage if it’s available to you.

Jeanne Sutton:    A huge advantage, and like let’s be honest, most of the times when loans make sense, unexpected, immediate financial expense, where really your only options are maybe to get a loan from your bank (probably not), get a HELOC if you can. That’s the first place you need to go.

But if you exhaust both of those options, now, you’re looking at credit card debt and a payday loan. So, now, your options are pay myself a 7% interest rate in a 20% down market or go take out a payday loan or put it on my credit card and get a 35% interest rate.

So, there’s this whole, you’re robbing your retirement, loans are bad, loans are bad. But I’m here to tell you, I’ve seen a lot of personal instances, even some paying down credit card debt where the client actually taking a loan from their retirement account was far better for them than any of the other options they had.

Steven Jarvis:     Well, in taking the loan from the 401(k), it’s a loan, it’s set up so that you are putting that money back in. You’re not robbing yourself of those contribution limits. Whereas, even if we don’t have to go … we’re not saying we’re going to go to credit card debt — if our alternative is let’s just take it out of the IRA, great.

So, if we take it out of the IRA, we have 60 days to potentially roll it back in. And after that, you’re never getting that same money back into an IRA. You’re left with your 6 or $7,000 a year for whatever time you have left.

So yeah, again, we’re not going to build a financial plan, intentionally planning 12 years from now, we’re going to go ahead and take a loan. But if that situation comes up, it can be a huge opportunity.

Jeanne Sutton:    Yeah. And I would say, oftentimes, it’s unexpected. Like you said, you would never plan for it, but things like divorce, men, or women going through a divorce that need a flush of cash to get through something, there’s a lot of reasons why somebody would take a loan from their retirement plan.

Steven Jarvis:     Yeah. Well, Jeanne, I really appreciate all your insight on this topic. We like to make sure that we’re taking valuable information and turning it into valuable action. And so, we always wrap up these podcasts with action items.

And so, I’ll let you go first, as we think about this conversation we’re having, what are some action items you would recommend to listeners to make sure that they are really providing value to their clients around 401(k)s?

Jeanne Sutton:    So, I would really think about your clients, they get to choose how they want their retirement account tax. That’s a choice that they get to make. And just for fun, I would project out what that client’s account balance will look like in retirement, and how much of it is supposed to be growth, and how much of it is supposed to be contributions. And evaluate Roth versus pretext from that perspective, because that’s where the rubber’s going to meet the road, is when they start taking distributions.

Steven Jarvis:     Yeah. Really getting clear on that understanding of what does this look like 20 years from now? Not necessarily, what does this look like on your next paycheck.

Kind of right along with that, one of the action items I’d recommend from what we’ve been talking about is make sure that you understand what options are available to your clients inside their 401(k) plan.

This isn’t a onetime question of “Hey, do you contribute to your 401(k) plan? Okay, great. Let’s move on.” Like really make sure you know what’s available under that plan, what options are available to them so that you can actually make strategic planning decisions and not just have this be some default that happens.

The other thing I would say, and I’m not even entirely sure how to really make this an action item, but the way you phrase this of the only way you can really max out a retirement plan is to do Roth.

I guess, really the action item is make sure that you are thinking about what the client’s goals are and are you really doing everything to accomplish that? Because those contribution limits are the same, whether it’s traditional or Roth, but the Roth side of it takes the IRS out as our business partner.

Jeanne, if people are listening to this and thinking, I really need to learn more about 401(k)s, you put out a ton of great content, how can people find you? How can people follow up and learn more from what you put out on 401(k)s?

Jeanne Sutton:    So, the best way to access the vlog, the video blog is on YouTube. Just search #401lady. It’s on YouTube. You can subscribe to the channel, and then connect with me on LinkedIn. I do a lot of just info graphs and different things that you’re welcome to steal, use, repeat. That’s all posted on LinkedIn.

Steven Jarvis:     Awesome. So, any questions related to 401(k)s or just looking for more great content to follow – I definitely follow Jeanne on LinkedIn. Really love the stuff that you’re putting out. So, thank you for doing that.

For everyone listening, if you’ve made it this far in the show, clearly, there’s some value in this. So, please take a minute to leave a five-star review and a comment. We’re trying to get this in front of as many advisors as we can, keep changing the industry and keep improving the client experience. So, take a minute to do that.

Until next time, good luck out there. And remember to tip your server, not the IRS.

We’re not overpaying. No, we’re not overpaying. We’re not overpaying anymore. The tax code’s complicated, boring, and overrated. You don’t want that, you want a pro. One thing that you should know: this is a radio show. It’s not tax advice, don’t take it that way.