Welcome back to the Retirement Tax Services Podcast! Steven’s guest is Maggie Klokkenga, the founder of Make a Money Mindshift. Maggie’s services include helping clients vet prospective CPAs for doing their taxes.
Maggie Klokkenga is both a CPA and a CFP. As a result, she’s got an inside track on what to ask tax preparer candidates.
She prefers to give options, so she avoids pushing anything. However, if a client presses her, asking for a standout among their chosen candidates, she’ll say so.
Whenever possible, she includes option B’s and C’s, too. You never know who’ll look great on their website… but turn out underwhelming in person. So, it pays to hedge her bets.
If no particular candidate seems ideal, she shares that, too. While she’s happy to help out, she insists that clients do their own homework. Everyone is expected to take time and meet prospective accountants face to face.
When asked to help scout for candidates proactively, she recommends starting in-state. It’s always better to find someone familiar with the ins and outs of local taxes.
Sometimes she’s tasked with helping an out-of-state client—and her network contacts come up dry. At that point, like anyone else, she searches the Web.
Next, she either makes a cold call or sends an email: How long it takes them to respond factors in.
She knows firsthand that most CPAs are at capacity right now. Fledgling planners may take nearly anyone to get their client base started. Meanwhile, tax-preparing CPA’s start out having to turn would-be clients away.
So, she doesn’t necessarily stop vetting someone over a delay.
Professional empathy helps her connect with new candidates, interpersonally, too. The fact that she’s willing to go the extra mile for her clients suggests her credibility, as well.
Good communication doesn’t hurt, either. As a result, she breaks clients’ needs down for fast ingestion in emails or voicemails.
This, paired with an acknowledgment that she doesn’t expect an instant response, has opened many CPA’s doors.
Headlines paint wild taxation pictures from time to time. Consequently, Maggie gets a lot of questions about the potential ramifications of proposed legislation.
Lacking a time machine, it’s tricky discussing ideas that may or may not wind up finalized into law. At the same time, other tax proposals get finalized so fast that it’s hard for financial professionals to keep track of them.
The good news is that in many cases, there’s little reason to worry. For example, if changes impact capital gains, there won’t be much, if any impact on her clients.
Typically, Maggie sits down with clients to go over the details: She discusses what’s happening currently, what could happen in the future—and the fact that some changes may not occur as predicted, at all.
She provides value through reassurance, but it’s also about managing expectations. Just because something’s on the docket today doesn’t mean it won’t be forgotten history tomorrow.
Even if your clients could be directly affected by pending legislation, remember that. Storm clouds loom… before departing every day somewhere in the world.
Don’t go down rabbit holes over rumors. Instead, focus on providing value where you know you can and make it clear to clients that come what may, you intend to walk beside them.
Steven and guest Maggie Klokkenga have much more insight on helping clients find their best CPA in today’s Retirement Tax Services Podcast. Please visit us at Retirementtaxservices.com, too. Feedback and unusual tax planning stories can be sent to advisors@rts.tax.
Are you interested in content that provides you with action steps that you can take to deliver massive tax value to your clients? Then you are going to love our powerful training sessions online. Click on the link below to get started on your journey:
https://retirementtaxservices.com/welcome
Thank you for listening.
Steven Jarvis:
Hello everyone! Welcome to the next episode of the Retirement Tax Services Podcast: Financial Professionals Edition. I am your host, Steven Jarvis, CPA. And in this show, I teach financial advisors how to deliver massive value to their clients through tax planning. With me on the show today, my guest is Maggie Klokkenga, who is a CPA and CFP and a financial coach at Make a Money Mindshift. So Maggie, welcome to the show!
Maggie Klokkenga:
Hi Steven. Thanks so much for having me!
SJ:
Yeah. I’m really excited to have you here today. Of course. I always love talking to my fellow CPAs. Even if you have ventured into the financial planning side of things, we love that focus on delivering value and not just checking the box on compliance. So really excited to have this conversation.
MK:
Yeah, thanks. I’m excited too. It’s always fun when I can talk to a fellow CPA.
SJ:
So before we dive in, can you talk a little bit about what it is you do at this point for your clients, just your basic service model so that everyone has a little bit of context for where you’re coming from with your experience?
MK:
Yeah, absolutely. So I’m a financial coach first, financial planner second. So really what I do is I work with my clients, usually in six to eight sessions and really getting them to know their numbers and also learn the ‘whys’ behind why they do what they do with their money. And then we work together on the ‘hows’ and that’s in order to achieve their ‘whats’. So lots of times I might have financial advisors who are referring to me clients because they don’t have the bandwidth or they realize that their client may need a little bit more hand holding just in that cashflow stage, and so that’s where I come in and then I turn them back to the financial advisor, usually in the second to last or last session.
SJ:
That’s really interesting. Can you talk a little bit about which came first, the CPA or the CFP?
MK:
Oh, the CPA came first. That was right out of college. That was a, that grandfathered in because I’m so old, I did not have to sit the 150 hours and took the CPA exam right out of college. Didn’t even graduate college yet. It was when I took the exam, everybody else was partying. I came back, there was graduation and then I was home. It was one big blur.
SJ:
Yeah. There’s your inner CPA coming through, taking a test instead of going to a party. It’s way more often than I meet someone who is a CPA first and then saw the importance and the value of financial planning. I’ve met a handful that go the other way, but it’s usually CPA first. So, Meg, one of the things we talked about as we were getting ready for the show, one of the things you’ll do for your clients, and I think you recently had a prospect ask you about this is, you helping to vet CPAs for them to use for their tax preparation. I thought that was fascinating, that it’s something that you do for clients. And so I’d love to hear how that process kind of works for you and where you see the value in that.
MK:
Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I don’t… honestly, it just comes so naturally to me, I think just being a CPA, even that’s not even a thought. So what happened was it, like you said, when we were talking earlier, I had a prospect reach out to me last week and said, you know, I’m really looking for a CPA and CFP. And she said, I found you and I’m looking for a woman, and I’m thinking that you can prepare my taxes and you can be my financial planner. And I explained to her that there are some financial planning firms that do tax preparation, but not all, but having a CPA and having that experience means that I can, you know, look for, you know, ideal tax planning opportunities, because I’ve already worked in that space, not to say that CFPs cannot.
MK:
I just had some more experience in that space as well. So when, you know, first of all, just setting up the expectation for this prospect to say, ‘look, just because I’m a CPA doesn’t mean that I prepare taxes for my clients, but again, it can happen. And so then it’s just because I have been in that space in public accounting for over 15 years previously, I just know the questions to ask just to, how do you work with a prospect? How do you work with a client? How do you communicate with them? Is it through an online portal? Do you like in-person meetings? And just, it kind of goes back to like when you’re first meeting a financial planner, a lot of it is gut. You know, you’re going to meet different CPAs, you’re going to either, you know, really jive with them or you’re not, or there’s going to be a process that they absolutely have to have, that you may feel isn’t going to best serve your prospect or client. And so you’re just kind of just looking for those different nuances that you think are going to best serve that prospect or client.
SJ:
Yeah I really like that, you kind of went rapid fire through them. But those are some great questions in there, of how do we identify what’s going to be a good fit. So for your process, I mean, are you going and you reached out to some different tax preparers, and then do you make a specific recommendation to your client? Or do you say here’s two to choose from? Or how, how does that logistically work?
MK:
You know I like to give options for sure. And, and if they, you know, go ahead and press me a little bit, is there one towards that you’re leaning towards, then I might say there’s one, you know, maybe, and if I’m not, they’ll say no, really it’s really, they’re all, you know, these are all very qualified CPAs, but I always like to give two to three options because what happens if that one CPA who I felt was going to be the perfect fit, ends up not being that perfect fit, you know? And so I really want them to still take some time going and meeting these people whether it’s online through zoom or whether it’s in-person. And so I do definitely like to give those options.
SJ:
When you’re looking for potential options, are these just tax preparers that are already in your network or are you, are you finding them on their websites and calling them? I mean, how do you start that conversation with them? Cause you know, we talk a lot on this show about working better with centers of influence with tax preparers. And it can be, it can be hard to get on the phone with a CPA just as a random financial planner calling them.
MK:
Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree with that. You know, I think especially now with COVID, it’s made the world so much more open as far as working with CPAs. Granted, that being said, I like to find CPS within the same state, if possible, just because as the prospect or client, because it’s just in their real house, you know, different states have different taxes, as we all know. And it’s just easier for the CPA to just really pretty much shoot from the hip. They know, you know, five things about the state that other CPS that aren’t preparing, those state taxes may know. And so I really try to find CPAs that are first within the state. And then depending on the different networking groups that I’m affiliated with or different, just different ways of me meeting other CPAs, that’s how we’ll find them. Sometimes it’ll be a straight Google search, you know, because if I’m not finding people within that state that I really feel could be qualified and then I’ll just be, you know, either a cold call or just an email. And again, that then lets me know how quickly are they responding to whether it’s a cold call or an email, because we also talked about earlier, Steven that CPAs are pretty much at capacity. It is not going to be hard for them to find work. So I also understand it may take a little bit of time for them to get back to me, but I take all of that into account when I’m vetting them.
SJ:
Such a great value add for your clients and prospects that you’re willing to take the time to do that because for a lot of consumers, those are really intimidating phone calls to make. They’ll get on a tax preparers website if they have one or they’ll try to call them, whatever they might try to do, but that’s really intimidating to know what questions to ask, to feel like they can respond to the answers that they get. And so that’s such an incredible value that you can add by helping your clients with that. I want to highlight something you said in there about, um, CPAs generally being at capacity, because I think this reinforces why for a lot of financial planners, the recommendation you got early in your career to go ask CPAs for referrals, just never works. It just highlights. One of the reasons why most of the time CPAs are not out there personally asking for referrals because their business model is this required compliance driven transaction every year. And a lot of times they don’t have to go out and scrimp and scrape for that next prospect. And so whether it’s conscious or subconscious, you coming and asking them for a referral in their minds, they’re like, ‘well, I don’t have to ask for referrals. What is it that you’re doing wrong that you’re out here begging me for referrals?’ And so I think that that’s just another way to kind of reinforce why that dynamic is different on the tax preparers.
MK:
I could not agree more. And it reminds me of how like Michael Kitces sometimes will talk about, you know, when you’re first starting off with your financial planning firm, you may just take a body like literally a body for a, you know, as a client because you’re just looking to build your business. But with CPAs, I mean, I don’t think you can, you know, essentially hang your shingle fast enough because people will ask you, ‘oh, you prepare taxes?’ I mean, I remember back when I, in my very early accounting days in public accounting, I was audit first and it was at KPMG and I would be traveling. I literally would have to turn my bag around so that it wouldn’t say KPMG because people would ask me tax questions. And I would say, I’m an audit. I don’t do taxes, but it doesn’t matter. People just want, you know, they want to know answers. And so I completely agree. It’s such a switch for the CPA and for those COI connections because they just, you know, lots of times we’ll think, ‘well, that’s great, but I have the work’, you know?
SJ:
Yeah. And it’s such a great contrast – what you’re doing. And I know this is just one of the many things you do, but by proactively going out and vetting tax preparers for your clients. Now you found a way to get into these tax repairs life that isn’t just asking them for referral. You’re showing them right out of the gate that you do more for your clients then in, in their minds, they probably think you just sell insurance. Now you’ve just shown them, Hey, here’s somebody who does a lot more. And you’ve started this relationship from such a great place because now not only does your client end up with hopefully a great tax preparer, but as you go down the road and there’s tax questions that come up or get the tax filings, you’ve established a great relationship with that tax preparer. Which I would love for you to maybe whether it’s from your experience as a CPA or just working with other CPAs, what are some of the things you’ve learned to, to keep that relationship strong or, or things that, that make a difference and how your client ultimately benefits from that relationship you have with the tax?
MK:
Yeah. So I think, and some of this goes back to some of the many episodes you’ve had just about communication that, you know, unfortunately as both CPAs, financial advisors, we’re not mind readers. And so you’ve got to have those lines of communication open. I mean, you recently had an episode with Mica talking about a situation that had occurred when the business entity changed. And so you have to have that communication, otherwise it just falls short. And so whether it’s talking about, you know, as a financial advisor, just reaching out to the CPA and saying, ‘Hey, just wanted to let you know, this transaction occurred.’ So maybe it’s a business entity, or maybe it’s what we had talked about before as well. It’s a QCD because those aren’t going to show up on the form 1099 R you know, ‘Hey, this was a QCD.’ That doesn’t show up.
MK:
And so you’ve, sometimes you have to just almost lay it out like one plus one equals two, just so that everybody’s on the same playing field. And it’s not that you’re trying to dumb anybody down. You just want to make sure that the communication is there. And, and maybe it’s just to say, ‘Hey, listen, I know you’re super busy right now, it’s October 11th. You don’t have to answer this until a week later or even two weeks later, if you’re taken off because of the October 15th deadline, I just wanted to put this in your email and I’ll circle back with you, you know, in two weeks, if I don’t hear back.’ That way, the CPA knows. Okay, good. I don’t, I’m not going to respond to this right now. Right. Because it’s October 11th and I’m barely getting enough sleep as it is. And they’ve already said to me that they’ll circle back with me.
So chances are, I’ll probably wait for that financial advisor to circle back with, you know, with me, because it’s just, there’s just so much work. As you know, Stephen in such a short amount of time that eyes get bleary, i’s are not dotted, T’s are not crossed. And you’re trying to just get past that deadline for financial advisors to just be respectful of that time. And just to say, ‘Hey, look, you know, let me send you a bag of cookies so that, you know, cause you’re, you’re trying to, you need a little bit of a sugar rush right now.’ Just going ahead, being, being mindful of those different due dates and then always keeping that line of communication as clear as possible.
SJ:
Yeah. I prefer chocolate chip if anybody’s looking to send me cookies. But I, I think that’s a great recommendation and it really, it, once again, drives home that there’s room for tax preparers and financial advisors to work collaboratively together and make sure the client is served because they’re, they’re doing different things. And if you have that proactive communication in place, if you have a financial advisor who like you is proactively looking for these things outside of the deadlines, when the CPA is trying to take time off and recover from all those hours they work there’s room there for both professionals to really be adding value to their client if that communication is in place. Absolutely. So Maggie let’s shift just a little bit and talk about, you had mentioned that you’re having a lot of conversations come up around proposed tax legislation. I would love to kind of hear your thoughts on what kinds of conversations you’re having with your clients right now, since none of that proposed legislation is final yet.
MK:
And that’s exactly the point, Steven. So yes, the tax legislation and there has been so much really that has come out in probably the last four years, you know almost to the point where before, you know, when the tax cuts and jobs act came out in 2017 and everybody’s like, ‘haw!, there’s this legislation!’ And it was such a big deal. And now it’s almost getting to the point where we’re like, ‘oh yeah, there’s some new tax law that just got passed.’ And you even lose sight of it in the news headlines because there has been so much of it, which I don’t know, that’s a good thing or a bad thing, but either way, when my clients are asking me, ‘Hey, I’ve heard about this tax legislation, how is it going to come up?’ You know, it may be about the capital gains, which really is not going to affect the clients that I have, you know, just on some of the different pieces for the higher tax rates.
MK:
It’s not going to affect the clients that I have. What I like to do is I just will go over a very high level with my clients and say, ‘here’s what the tax legislation is right now. Here’s, what’s being proposed, but guess what? It can change very quickly. It may happen. It may not happen. It may do a 180 at the last minute and we don’t see it. We don’t see it coming. It’s like the stock market.’ And so it’s really just kind of managing their expectations to say, ‘this is on the docket, but we have no idea this is going to happen or not.’ Now I don’t have clients where like some of this proposed tax legislation that’s coming out that it’s really going to directly affect them. Obviously I’m one of thousands of financial advisors, and so you could have clients where this could really impact them, but again, you may be going down a rabbit hole because, you know, you can only do so much. You can only do so many projections on the financial planning software side or in your Excel spreadsheets. And then to ask the CPA, ‘Hey, can you do a tax projection for them?’ And that’s going to be dollars either in that you’re paying on behalf of the client or the client’s paying. And it’s just, it’s not passed yet. So you don’t know.
SJ:
Yeah. There’s a couple of really great things in there. I mean, one, it really reinforces how, how powerful it can be to have a niche that you serve so that you can narrow in and focus on just the things that impact your clients, because you made the comment in there a couple of times, oh, you know, there’s a lot of that doesn’t impact the clients you serve? And so the better you understand your niche as an advisor and what, whether it’s proposed tax laws, or just even existing tax laws, the better you understand what impacts your niche, the more you can focus and just learn and become an expert in those areas. You don’t need to memorize the whole tax code. You don’t need to learn every aspect of the proposed tax laws, or even when they become final you probably don’t have to spend time on all of the changes you need to understand what impacts your clients.
And then I really liked how you, you talked about, uh, you know, trying to sort through all these headlines. Um, you know, it’s several different things I do. I end up seeing questions from a lot of both consumers and advisors and especially on the consumer side, a lot of times it’s just, ‘Hey, here’s this headline, what does this mean for me?’ And so I’m with you on that. That while the changes are proposed and we don’t know exactly what they’re going to be, I would really caution anyone, any advisors trying to get their clients to hurry up and make any sort of decisions based on ‘X’. We don’t know what the end result is going to be, but it can be really helpful for your clients because one of the ways you can add value is giving them peace of mind and taking away some of the confusion and anxiety.
SJ:
So it can be really helpful to be able to just say at a high level, ‘okay, hey, here’s what that headline is generally related to as far as what they might be proposing, but we don’t know what’s actually going to happen. And when it does get finalized, we’re going to work together to make sure that we address it for your situation.’ Probably the only exception I’ve come across so far is that one of the proposed changes might have a real impact on backdoor Roth contributions. The only one that’s a little bit, the only reason that’s a little bit different in my mind is that I’m taking this opportunity before 2021 is over and separating the cream from the coffee, as we like to say, and, and getting those after-tax IRA contributions converted while that’s still an option is probably worth considering, because if that change doesn’t happen, your client’s not worse off. And so, you know, working with your clients to, to use what the proposals are, as motivation to do things you were planning to do already, you know, that that might be a great thing to do, but asking your client to take guesses about how the proposed changes actually finalize out. That’s not really what I’m in the business of doing.
MK:
Yeah. I completely agree with you. And I do agree as well about the backdoor roth, you know, we’ll see what happens, but like you said, even if it’s, you know, obviously could be, you know, bettering your clients anyway, why not? It is motivation to say, ‘okay, I let’s go ahead and take care of this now, because whether it happens or not, it’s still going to benefit you.’,
SJ:
Definitely. I definitely will get more so consumers, but also advisers who will make comments about, well, you know, ‘how can you make tax recommendations at all? When, when we all, we know it can all change. I mean, there’s proposed legislation right now, but there’s never any certainty around tax laws. So how do we make long-term tax plan recommendations?’ Well, first of all, if you’re managing people’s money in the stock market, I’m not sure why you don’t understand how this works. We make the best recommendations we can, based on the information we have. And aside from that, if you are, if you’re using current proposed changes as an excuse to not do tax planning, well, then you’re never going to do tax planning because Congress proves over and over again that the tax code is written in pencil and they can change it whenever they want. And so if you’re waiting until there’s some sort of guarantee about what tax laws are going to be for the next 5 or 10 or even 2 years, or you’re missing an opportunity to add value for your clients. And really what you’re doing is you’re giving another advisor a golden opportunity to take your clients from you. Because when they come across an advisor who says, ‘well, hey, what did your current advisor say when they looked at your tax return? Oh, they don’t look at your tax return. Let’s look at your tax return together.’
MK:
Uh, you know, and that thing that always surprises me, like, why wouldn’t you take a look at the tax return now, granted being a CPA and I am a geek, I will totally say, I love looking at a tax return because it tells a story about the client, but I just, there’s so much information in there that is just, I mean, just in thinking, you know, if you’re looking at maybe working with a prospect and you see a 1099, you know, you see some 1099 dividend income in there, but yet they weren’t listing that as an asset. I mean, people don’t remember everything that they have, you know, they just, it doesn’t come to mind. And so just having those, it’s like these little treasure troves where you can say, well, you know, I saw this stock from Exxon mobile. Is that something that you know, that you have somewhere? Oh, I forgot about that. Oh, that was from my grandmother, dah. Okay. Uh, we have some appreciated stock that we need to think about, you know, so all of these pieces just that can come from the tax return itself to not look at, it would be such a disservice to our clients.
SJ:
Yeah. And Maggie you’re right. I mean, there could be people listening who think, ‘oh, well, she’s a CPA. She’s already got that experience. Like, it’s easy for her to say, we should be reviewing tax returns.’ And I am also a CPA so listeners could be thinking the same thing about me. And if you want to use that as an excuse, you’re more than welcome to, uh, I can’t force you to do that differently, but again, if you can focus on, okay, what are the, what are the forms? What are the lines that are most relevant to my clients? And start there, start a little bit and start one return at a time and start practicing. So this is something that you can deliver massive value to your clients on, because either you let the fact that Maggie and I are CPAs, be an excuse for you to not try or you get started. And, and you really start to, to change the value that you’re giving to your clients.
MK:
I completely agree with that statement. Absolutely.
SJ:
Well, Maggie with, uh, maybe just one more opportunity with your experience as both being a CPA and CFP, any just recommendations you would make to financial advisors of how to make sure you’re leveraging those CPA relationships to be as strong as possible to be as valuable as possible for your clients.
MK:
You know, I think because of the schedule that CPAs can be under, I think asking when you’re meeting with a CPA for the first time and just ask them, you know, ‘how do you like to meet? When do you like to meet? When do you know, do you have a schedule for when you have, you know, certain, timelines?’ Like obviously we, we all know about surge meetings, like CPAs don’t necessarily do surge meetings, but do you have something CPA where you will work on a lot of tax planning during this specific time? Like, for example, right now it’s our, you know, we’re in late October going until about right after Thanksgiving, this is a time where there may be some tax planning that the CPA has time to do. And so maybe if I, as the financial advisor am asking the CPA, when’s the timeframe that you like to do, you know, tax planning for the next year. They bring this up? Perfect! Let’s get that on the calendar because you’re really wanting to work around them because they do have those hard stops throughout the year.
SJ:
Yeah. That’s a really great recommendation. And for advisors listening, if you don’t already have a list of questions that you use, when you meet with CPAs, feel free to send an email to advisors@rts.tax, happy to share the one that we use. And now I’ll go back and make sure that we’re including what Maggie is talking about here of making sure you’re asking them about their schedule and timing; when it’s going to be effective to reach out and collaborate, versus when they’re not going to respond. And that’s, it’s a great way to right out of the gate, set clear expectations and have this mutual respect, as opposed to you coming to them and making them feel like they’re kind of like your babysitter of making sure that taxes all get done correctly.
MK:
Exactly. Absolutely!
SJ:
So Maggie we like to make sure that we always wrap up with action items so that we can help listeners take what we’re talking about and put it into practice, really get some value out of it. So, uh, I’ll, I’ll let you go first. What, based on the conversation that we’ve been having today, what’s an action item that you would recommend to our listeners.
MK:
Yeah. And it actually goes right into what I just talked about, Stephen. So this is a great time if you’re thinking about hiring a CPA or EA, and you maybe want to switch or you’re just looking to hire your first one. This is actually a really good time to start doing that process, because this, you know, there is a little bit of lag time, unless you have a CPA, who’s doing private foundations, that’s the November 15th extended deadline. But other than that, they’re taking some time to kind of gather their thoughts, get a breather in before they start doing year-end tax planning. And so you really want to start working, um, you know, talking to people. ‘Who is it that you use as a CPA? who does it, that, you know, you feel comfortable, you know, with your taxes.’ And then from there, just start establishing those meetings, setting up sometimes. So you can just meet some and find out who you think will be a really good fit for you.
SJ:
Yeah. This is great timing for that and make sure that as you’re putting that action item into practice, that you set yourself a specific goal, give yourself a timeline and how many people you’re going to reach out to so that this is quantifiable and it actually happens.
MK:
Absolutely. You go ahead and do those smart goals!
SJ:
That’s right. Two other action items I’d recommend out of this conversation. One, is make sure that you are documented in your CRM, who your clients use for their tax preparer, and asking them if they have one or if they would like help finding one. Yes, Maggie’s got some great background being both a CPA and CFP, but that is something you can definitely help your clients with. And it’s going to make your life as the advisor easier if they end up with a great tax preparer. So making sure that you’re taking that step. And then of course, we’re going to always recommend that you’re getting tax returns for your clients, and then taking that a step further and practicing, reviewing them, even if you’re new to this, and you don’t feel comfortable doing that in front of a client yet still scope take the time to go through and practice this. And for our RTS members, make sure that if you haven’t recently sent a tax return to review that you’re getting those submitted so that I can give you some insight, and then you can learn from that process as well. Well, Maggie, I really appreciate having you on the show today. This has been a lot of fun. Thanks for being here!
MK:
Thanks so much for having me, Stephen. This was really fun.
SJ:
And for everyone listening, good luck out there until next time. And remember to tip your server, not the IRS!
